edited for sNepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 116
(9/21/05 5:23 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote:Mount Adam Thomas


which in earlier books was Mount Allen Thomas!

I do have that quote from Jase, on my other computer

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 117
(9/21/05 7:01 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage [Jase] "I've been practicing. How's Dai ghiyi-ma, aigi'ta amath-aiji, an Jase Graham?"
"Hamatha-aijijin, but that's real good."
Invader, pp. 363 paperback


I hope the "y" is Jase slightly mispronouncing the word, because I haven't seen "y" as a letter in Ragi before.

Edited to fix weird quotation marks

Edited by: Nepenti at: 9/22/05 6:54 pm
Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 297
(9/22/05 4:47 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage 'y' would seem necessary to a word like "ghiyi-ma", Presumably said 'ghi-yi-ma'. Notice the ending '-ma'.

Can we deconstruct this sentence?

Dai ghiyi-ma, aigi’ta amath-aiji, an Jase Graham

'amath-aiji' does that relate to the childerens language? Maybe 'Amath' is 'speach' and "Amathai'in", being perhaps a diminutive?

Is'nt '-ma' an ending implying a certain formality?

The responce is 'Hamatha-aijijin' Which seems to relate to its use in the greating 'Hamatha ta resa Tatiseigi dathasa'. Could it mean 'welcome' or maybe 'good'?

Hmm 'aijijin' is this a formal or informal use? could 'jin' be the long version of '-ji'?

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 120
(9/22/05 8:25 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Zen, your research is farther along than mine is!

I had been assuming Bren's response was a correction (correcting "amath-aiji" to "Hamatha-aijijin"), rather than an answer. How would we know?

In either case, it makes sense that hamatha, amath (if it is a correct word), and Amathai'in are related.

Also Hamatha showing up in the greeting to lord Tatiseigi. That sure does look like "welcome", or something closely related.

But "aiji-ji" doesn't make sense socially. Who could ever be in a position to say that?

I was thinking aijijin was some grammatical form of aiji. We have been told how to decline "aiji" in four cases, singular and non-specific plural. But there are probably more than four cases. (We haven't seen indirect object, we haven't seen 'moving toward'. I don't even remember all the possibilities. But a highly declined language can have a lot.) It is speculation, but "addressed toward the aiji" makes sense. -- "Hamatha-aijijin" as "Greetings to the aiji."

"Ghiyi-ma" could be representing Jase attempting to pronounce a word that would be officially spelled "ghii-ma". It just bothers me that the only time we have seen the letter "y" in a Ragi word is in one of Jase's very early attempts at the language. (Not that I think I could do a better job of pronouncing "ghii-ma". G-H as two separate consonants at the beginning of a word would be a mouthful.)

It's a good start, Zen!

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 123
(9/23/05 10:18 am)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage So I looked up the noun cases for Finnish, just to prove that things can always get worse ... (Finnish is what you call a highly inflected language, and they can get half a sentence into one very long word.) We can just hope Ragi isn't quite this bad! 

These are all endings added onto nouns, and most have at least one complete set of pronouns (I, me, my, mine ...) :

Nominative: subject (actor) of the sentence, the usual dictionary entry

Accusative: "direct object"; the whole of the object is affected by the verb

Genitive: possessive

Parative: "from" a place, "some from" a group, "of the quantity or quality"

Elative: "out of" a place, "in exchange for", "from among"

Addessive: "on", "in"

Inessive: "within"

Illative: "into", ending or left "at", time "at" or "during"

Ablative: "from"

Allative: "to", "onto", "for" (indirect object)
(As in, Give the teacher the book.)

Essive: "at", site of an action

Translative: change of state, "into" a state

Comitative: "with", "belonging to", "part of"

Instructive: "by", "with", manner of action, means

Abessive: "without"

Prolative: "along", direction of travel

In English, many of these situations are handled by prepositions, not changes to the noun. We already know Ragi is more inflected than English. (Most languages are more inflected than English.) At this point, we don't know just how extreme Ragi is.

Asicho
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 15
(9/23/05 3:50 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Re: Finnish--and I thought Russian was bad!

I, also, always assumed "hamatha-aijijin" was Bren correcting Jase's mistake; also that aijijin was a form of aiji.

Quote:But "aiji-ji" doesn't make sense socially. Who could ever be in a position to say that?



Well, Jase does say "aiji-ji" to Bren later (in the quote from Precursor--"Aiji-ji, so'sarai ta") but that's certainly a very different social situation. Bren always calls Tabini (and Ilisidi) "aiji-ma," even in informal situations. "Aiji-ji" would seem to be something you'd only say if you were extremely close to said aiji, and definitely isn't something a sane human translator would say at first meeting an atevi lord. It seems more like "beloved Jedi master" than "your lordship".

So sounds like the last part of that sentence then is "Greetings to the aiji from Jase Graham," which makes total sense in context. Do we have enough information to speculate what "ghiyi-ma" ("ghii-ma"?) might mean?

"'God' is 'tears'?"
"Among other elusive concepts, Jago-ji."
Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 297
(9/23/05 5:07 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I'm sure "Hamatha" and "Amatha" are different words.

Hamatha in use in the sentence 'Hamatha ta resa Tatiseigi dathasa' does not have to mean 'welcome', because we don't know the exact nature of the word order (or I've forgotten if its mentioned). So it could be translated say (and this is just guesswork mind) "good your arrival Tatiseigi greatings".


Hmmmm mind on a little roll here....
Note something here!
"Shi, paidhi, noka ais-ji?" Are you reliable, translator-mediator?
"Shi!" I am.
So we know "Shi" means 'I am' but what is its exact meaning in the first sentence? Could be instead a form of "yes" or "are" the latter making it rather important. But the problem is that they may be different words but look the same under certain conditions!

And do we see it again as "shi'ra"? in "Na dei shi'ra ma'anto paidhi, nadi?" Are you not one of the paidhiin, sir? Am I mistaken?


See we have a ending here for "nadiin" in "Nadiin-sai" in the sentence "Nadiin-sai, machi arai'si na djima sa dimajin tasu." - Keep playing until further notice. (Probably the Nadiin were not mentioned in the translation).

"ghidari'sai uchi'sa-ma " the staff are all rain clouds
"jidari'sai uchi'sa-ma " the staff may be offended?

So we can see "ghidari'sai" is 'rainclouds' and "jidari'sai" is 'offended'. The 'sai part being perhaps an case ending?
We can also deduce that "uchi'sa-ma" contains the word 'staff', with a clear ending "-ma" not necessarily anthing to do with the ending "-ma" in "aiji-ma".

'Get' irregular indivisbles
shikira
makkiura
shis'urna

Bren says "any three quarters of any verb in the -irei class: they rhyme with the -ra plurals, at least in the past tenses"

note the stress in the correction "asso shi madihiin-sa" in how to ask for two bowles. Is this the same "shi" we see elsewhere?

Edited by: Zen9 at: 9/23/05 5:37 pm
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 130
(9/23/05 8:05 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Asicho -- I had forgotten about that quote from Jase about aiji-ji! "Beloved Jedi master", that sounds about right.

I agree that we don't have the exact meaning of Hamatha pinned down yet. It appears prominently in two greetings, but we don't know exactly.

Shi seems to be used in a variety of ways.

We have Bren scolding Deana: “Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”

The way he emphasises "shi" suggests that makes the difference between "urgent meeting" which she meant, and "pregnant calendar" which she said. Nothing to do with "I am" in this sentence, even though shi clearly is "I am" in the other example.

Then there is the entirely different form of "I am" -- nai'am, found in the Glossary of books 1 & 2.

“Man'china aijiia nai'am,” -- I'm the aiji's associate, foremost.

The same Glossary tells us aijiia means "aiji's"
Man'chi-(something) the-aiji's I-am
(another example of word order)

Which leaves man'china to be something like "in the man'chi", "belonging to the man'chi"

Spanish has two verbs that translate in English as "be", in different senses. So it is not necessarily a problem if Ragi has two words for "I am".

There is another example of the nadiin-sai construction:
{Bren at news confererence, addressing children of the populace} “... I may not be able to answer each and every letter you send me, but I do thank you for writing and asking, nadiin-sai, thank you very much for your good questions.” Invader 266

Just more assorted data at this point, I'm afraid.

[At this point I realize I have the urge to make the plural of "data" as "dati"! Yes, even knowing "data" is already plural.]

Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 297
(9/24/05 10:07 am)
Reply New Post Ragi Ahh Napenti-ji I had forgotten those references, alas I don't have those two books.

We have Bren scolding Deana: “Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”
Hmmm thats not a literal translation, since there are only two words "naighai" and "maighi-shi", where "-shi" is an ending not a seperate word.
might this not be translated as "volcabulary(abrupt form?) meeting(implied urgency), Deana dear"

........

“Man'china aijiia nai'am,” -- I'm the aiji's associate, foremost.

If "nai'am" is 'I am' and "aijiia" is "aiji's" then the ending on "man'chi" or "na" would suggest the 'foremost' part assuming its not part of the word "nai'am".
Interesting to see the wordorder "associate(foremost?) aiji's I am".

The number of words for 'be' may well be more than two just as there seems to be three forms for 'get'. However English has quite a few used either alone or in conjuction with other words, 'get', 'have' (do have, have it), 'take', and if we look into Old English we also have 'nimman' congate with German 'nehman'. So without further imformation we can only guess at how many forms of these basic construction words are available in Ragi.

Rodlox
Bujavid Security
Posts: 305
(9/25/05 6:13 pm)
Reply New Post Re: "shi"
>"Shi, paidhi, noka ais-ji?" Are you reliable, translator-mediator?
>"Shi!" I am.
>So we know "Shi" means 'I am' but what is its exact meaning in the first sentence?

and-or, perhaps shi is simply First Person, Confirming (or Declarative).

...yeah, the exclamation mark pointed the way to that. (bad pun, I'm sorry)


>“Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”

...in which case, the shi might make it "(do) definately prepare!...".

just a guess.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 134
(9/25/05 7:14 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: "shi"

Quoteerhaps shi is simply First Person, Confirming (or Declarative).

In that case, what function is shi serving in the question?

I fear that, as Zen said, the "translations" we have been given are not always word-for-word translations. This does not make our job as linguists easier.

Quote:“Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”


I had assumed that in this sentence, "urgent meeting" was the translation of “Naighai maighi-shi". And then Bren continues scolding Deana. I was assuming that Bren was going on about the urgent meeting/pregnant calendar debacle, to remind Deana that she wasn't as fluent as she liked to believe. And that shi, which Bren emphasised, was the point Deana had gotten wrong.

This is where it is interesting, having several linguists, and we each come up with different ideas!

Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 303
(9/26/05 3:48 am)
Reply
New Post Re: "shi" Hmmmm
Question
"Shi paidhi noka ais-ji?"

'be'(unknown form) translater-mediator reliable ?(interagotive)-dear?

Answer
"Shi"

'be'

hmmm youi might be right on “Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”
Making
“Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji" - meeting urgent Deana-dear
Or perhaps the ending '-shi' is a negative making it
- "meeting calender-not Deana-dear." Which would explain the stress on the ending!

I'm pretty sure "-shi", is not "Shi".

This is rather fun!


Rodlox
Bujavid Security
Posts: 310
(9/26/05 8:57 am)
Reply New Post Re: "shi"
>>perhaps shi is simply First Person, Confirming (or Declarative).

>In that case, what function is shi serving in the question?

the same as "I am" with an exclamation mark does in English: its First Person, so its "I am" rather than "You are" or "We are"....and its said with confidence/force/other, hence the exclamation.

as I said, just a thought.

please, have some more 

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 138
(9/26/05 7:42 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: "shi"

Quote:"Shi, paidhi, noka ais-ji?" Are you reliable, translator-mediator?
"Shi!" I am.


Nadi Rodlox, how can shi be first-person in both those sentences?

Zen's analysis at least accounts for all the words. Of course we still have to see if it fits with any other of the Ragi quotes.

Quote:This is rather fun!


Oh, yes, quite. Much more fun with several people.

I found a couple more minor quotes that aren't on Rodlox's webpage yet.

"Sha nauru shina" I'll contact you. {Precursor p. 133 paperback}

"Hold on. Jai! Atira'na. Don't let go." Precursor p. 137 paperback}

Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 306
(9/27/05 3:26 am)
Reply
New Post Re: "shi" "Sha nauru shina" I'll contact you. {Precursor p. 133 paperback}

Interesting one that....could 'Sha' be a declination of 'Shi'?
If so it might suggest 'shina' is also. Though as far as I'm going on 'Shi' being a form of 'be' they might not.....hmmmmm......could it be "be(uknown form) contact you"

"Hold on. Jai! Atira'na. Don't let go." Precursor p. 137 paperback}

Much more difficult. "Jai!" is clearly the imperative, perhaps it is a call to attention?


Quote:Oh, yes, quite. Much more fun with several people.


Indeed!

Chomiji Kaharingai
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 980
(9/27/05 9:45 am)
Reply
New Post Re: the page Rodlox-ji,

Your persistence and scholarship are admirable.

As a humble cobbler of web pages, one would like to suggest that if you insert the code for a non-breaking space,

 

into your empty table cells, they will have a more artistic appearance.

- Cho


Life is a journey ... Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

the mule
Paidhi-aiji
Posts: 4379
(9/28/05 9:03 am)
Reply
New Post Re: the page Is it just possible that Shi is not a predicate (I am) but rather a confirmation of correctness?

thus the exchange might be

It's true that you are a reliable Paidhi?
It's true!

this would also create

Urgent meeting (it's true (ie correct) ) Miss Deanna!
for the scolding

This just seems to fit better.

Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 310
(9/28/05 5:05 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: the page Hold on....

"It's" is a contraction of "It is", is'nt that a form of 'be'?

In English you get (I may forget some here).
'Be'
'Is'
'Was'
'Are'
'Am'
and in Old English, 'sind' as well.

“Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji.
Its clear to me that "-shi" is an ending, like '-eth', '-est', '-ed' where in English and still '-s', '-ing' and '-y' is.


"Daiti, nadiin tekikin, madighi tritin distitas pas aijimaisit, das, das, das, magji das. "

Hmmm we can swap the words we know.........
Daiti, sir's technician(s?), madighi treaty distitas pas aijimaisit, das, das, das, magji das.

Leaving us with "Daiti", "madigi", "distitas", "pas", "das", "magji" and a form of "aiji" in "aijimaisit"

Edited by: Zen9 at: 9/28/05 5:24 pm
Sabina B
Shai-Shan Service Staff
Guild Assassin
Posts: 2514
(9/28/05 6:36 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: the page The "das" is probably put in due to felcitious number reasons, at least Bren stated something about numerical difficulties when he gave that sentence.

I like the "-shi" -true interpretation.
it might be an ending, but that doesn't mean it has to be an ending like we are wont to have. Take Japanese for example, you get to use endings that state different levels of politeness among other things.

You should look it up, I think I vaguely remember that Deana's pregnant calenders had been given somewhere (though I might confuse that with Jase's clouds, there we have a direct comparison after all.)

And for the webpage: Precursor (HC, 245): Kate Shugart said "noble thieves" instead of "assassins guild" (Bren remarks to himself that the word for assassin and thief are similar, and the antique word noble and guild even closer. - Curious notion, btw.)
(In Precursor there were also the "vegtable" and "fish" mistakes by the translators (all with remarks form Bren) and the slightly dodgy help request from Jase.)

キャプテン・フューチャー全集
Edited by: Sabina B at: 9/28/05 6:50 pm
Chia
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 15
(9/28/05 8:30 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I'm a terrible linguist. However, from the context I assumed "daiti" meant data. A borrowed word, if you would. I assumed the sentance was something like - Data, technicians, send the treaty.....

in that case das das das may be some part of a file name.
spelling oooops.

Edited by: Chia at: 9/28/05 8:31 pm

Dec 24, 2006#5hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1700
(11/4/05 7:25 pm)
Reply | Edit New Post chef d'œuvre [it's French for master piece]

I am thinking a lot of the Mahen is in professional code or in 5 or 6 different dialects. If you could send me an email with the details of hosting the two pages I would appreciate it.

Edited by: hrhspence at: 11/4/05 8:28 pm
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 543
(11/4/05 8:23 pm)
Reply New Post Re: chef d'œuvre
email sent. look for mail from Keenir or Anthony.

Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 544
(11/4/05 8:24 pm)
Reply New Post Re: notes for chef d'œuvre
italics < i >
bold < b >
I'll send you the code for the frame once you reply. thanks.

hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1701
(11/4/05 8:41 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: notes for chef d'œuvre BABEL TEXT IN THE KIFFISH TONGUE

The Kiffish Language is a joint effort of CJ Cherryh's and mine. I approached her in an email message and suggested that I fill out the Hani, Kiffish, Stsho and Mahendosat languages that she started for her Chanur series. As I am a linguist and enjoy creating languages, she approved and has been overseeing me in this project.

The Babel project is run by Jeff Henning as a means of demonstrating Created languages in a single text. Below, the language of CJ Cherryh's Kiff is demonstrated in the 'Babel Text:' Gen. 11:1-9, the story of the creation of humanities languages at the tower of Babel.

There are three types of text below, 1, the romanization of the text in Kiffish. 2, the word for word translation and 3, the nearest approximation of the translation back into English. After the text there are several grammatical notes.

SGKHR-IKKT SKKIR-KTA TERAKTA
[time line/history][organize/gen][Earth/gen]
Chronicle of the Organization of the Earth (Genesis)

Ghurrukt-up hekhttekht rukt-up faisg ghinkt-up khtef-ktakkt-kkt
[eleven/th] [chapter] [one/th] [until] [nine/th] [word/packet/pl]
eleventh chapter, first through nineth verses


RUKT: Ginkt-ku umankt-kkt Tera-kta kkisf-ok ruk-ku kkoiskk-otk ruk-ku trakk-ska, tha.

ONE: [all/adj] [human/pl] [Earth/gen] [speak/past] [one/adj] [language/abs.] [one/adj] [way/instr] [reported]

ONE: It is reported that all humans of Earth spoke one language in one way.


KTUM: Sgat kktokht-ok sothog-otk naigh-lit gukkt ktokkkt aim-otk gekk-ku rekt sfig-lit Shinar-kta khtosf-ok khtan ktaip-ok.

TWO: [as] [journey/past] [clan/abs] [east/prep] [from] [they] [place/abs] [flat/adj] [in] [country/prep] [Shinar/gen] [find/past] [and] [live in/past]

TWO: As a clan from the east journeyed they found and dwelt in a flat place in the country of Shinar.


RUSKK: Skku-ok nokikkt shkhskk kkak: "Kkko-i sgigh-kkt-otk khtan noki-kkt ktoth-i." Rekkt, ktokkkt ufik-ok sgigh-kkt-otk roikt-ing khtan khtoir-otk skkoi-ku nkhn-ing.

THREE: [subordinate/past] [them] [therefore] [rumored]: "[make/imp] [brick/pl/abs] [and] [them] [fire in a kiln/imp]." [so], [they] [use/past] [brick/pl/abs] [stone/in place of] [and] [oil/abs] [black/adj] [cement/in place of].

THREE: It is rumored that they were subordinated in this manner: "Make bricks and burn them in a kiln." So, they used brick in the place of stone and black-oil in the place of cement.


NKH: Skku-ok sgonkt-thu nokikkt shkhskk kkak: "kkko-i nkhf-otk khtan gesg-otk makkt skthi gakt skth-os ktatr-otk; khtan sfik-chu-i makkt-uk nokkkt hukk-rok poi-lit sgakk Tera-ud."

FOUR: [subordinate/past] [more/adv] [them] [therefore] [rumored]: "[make/imp] [castle/abs] [and] [tower/abs] [that] [its] [top] [reach/fut] [heaven/abs]; [and] [face/increase/imp] [that/purp] [we] [not/be scattered] [surface/prep] [on] [Earth/part]."

FOUR: It was rumored that they were further subordinated in this manner: "Make a castle and a tower whose top will reach heaven and increase our 'sfik' so that we won't be scattered in the surface of the Earth."


KTKHNG: Kig-ok Treskk-ku Haikkt-otk makkt-uk ktk ta-sfo nkht-nktain-otk khtan gesg-nktain-otk makkt umankt-kkt ktaikkt-zik, mak.

FIVE: [descend/past] [Lord/adj] [God/abs] [that/purp] [he] [see/cond] [castle/so-called/abs] [and] [tower/so-called/abs] [that] [human/pl] [build/anter], [assumed].

FIVE: It was assumed that the Lord God descended that he might see the so called castle and tower that the humans had built.


KTENG: Treskk-ku Haikkt tinkt-ok, "Kktkktkkt! Umankt-kkt-otk ktkhtr-o khtan ktokkkt ginkt-ku kkisf-o ruk-ku kkoiskk-otk; kktunkt-ska, hakkaip-otk pok-os nokikkt-lit ktokk skthikkt trek-nkte-lit gukkt.

SIX: [Lord/adj] [God] [say/past] "[disapproving noise]! [human/pl/abs] [unite/pres] [and] [they] [all/adj] [speak/pres] [one/adj] [language/abs]; [this/inst], [nothing/abs] [be-held/fut] [them/prep] [or] [their] [imagine/out-of-control/prep] [from].

SIX: It is reported that the Lord God said, "[disapproving noise]! The humans are united and they all speak one language; With this, nothing will be held from them or their out of control imagination.


RUK: "Ktkkkt sgkhkt-os pigh khtan sgaskk-esg-os skthikkt kkoiskk-otk makkt-uk ktokkkt sgaskk-i hukk nokikkt-esg," tha.

SEVEN: "[we] [go/fut] [there] [and] [understand/dis-/fut] [their] [language/abs] [that/purp] [they] [understand/affirm] [not] [them/dis-]," [reported].

SEVEN: "We will go there and confuse their language so they won't understand each other."


PAIKHT: Rekkt, rok-ok Treskk-ku Haikkt nokikkt pigh-lit gukkt poi-lit sgakk Tera-ud, tha.

EIGHT: [so], [scatter/past] [Lord-adj] [God] [them] [there/prep] [from] [surface/prep] [on] [Earth/part], [reported].

EIGHT: So, it is reported, the Lord God scattered them from there on the surface of the Earth.


GHINKT: Rekkt-chu, taikkt skthi Papel-otk, ktokk sgaskk-esg-gu-otk; kkkotok Treskk-ku Haikkt pigh-tok sgaskk-esg-ok ginkt-ku umankt-kkt-otk: khtan rok-ok nokikkt pigh-lit gukkt poi-lit sgakk Tera-ud, na.

NINE: [so/intens], [name] [its] [Babel/abs], [or] [understand/dis-/place/abs]; [because] [Lord/adj] [God] [there/loc] [understand/dis-/past] [all/adj] [human/pl/abs]: [and] [scatter/past] [them] [there/prep] [from] [surface/prep] [on] [Earth/part], [observed]

NINE: Therefore, it is as I have seen, that the name of it is called 'Babel,' or ' the Place of Misunderstanding': because the Lord God confused all the humans and scattered them from that place on the surface of the Earth.

Grammatical Notes

abs = absolutive case, direct objects or subjects of intransitive verbs
adj = adjective
adv = adverb
affirm = affirmative INTMA mood marker
anter = anterior INTMA aspect marker
cond = conditional INTMA mood marker
dis- = affix which reverses meaning of the root word
fut = future tense conjugation
gen = genetive case, or 'of'
imp = imperative INTMA mood marker
inst = instrumental case, or 'with'
intens = affix which intensifies the meaning of the root word
loc = locative case, tells location
part = partative case, indicates that a portion of this root modifies another
past = past tense conjucation
pl = plural form
prep = prepositional case, indicates a preposition will modify this root
pres = present tense conjugation
purp = affix demonstrating a purpose

The following particles: assumed, observed, reported, and rumored are stative markers which allow a kiff to tell his relationship to the validity of an action, a necessary function of their culture.

hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1702
(11/4/05 8:58 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: notes for chef d'œuvre Here is the translation of Gen 11:1-9 into the An'dorian language, an artificial language I created for the Andorian peoples from Star Trek.


Iz kiidoothiin uk kiidoohee nguun'duzaa aam ep kuuv'thiinphokh haat aam eeh Kamiphaa.
[The first through ninth word-lines of the ten-oneth chapter of the Startings]

thiin: Pum iim raphibaa muteraahaa im riihib eb ar oorpa.
[one: And all they from Terra the same language spoke.]

ziiv: Pum, bed eh kageet aam Eb meeng ar oorluul, utaa aahvaad zu on og aam Zhinaar ar oorgiir pum red ar oornoo.
[two: And when many of the East journeyed, they a plane within the land of Shinar found and there dwelt.]

puung: Pum utaa puh ar oortah, phu "Itaa khuuz. Pum itaa aah kaazaa voh pum rid." Pum utaa ah kaazaa pum aah zoo'zheez rud ooh radaa pum uub kahuul ar oorkop.
[three: And they to each other said that "You go. And you bricks make and burn." And they the bricks and black-foam for stones and cement used.

gaar: Pum utaa puh ar oortah, phu "Ataa oh puuh pum iiz vi, phu ep zup phazh Neel'riikh iv em zenuth, diiph; pum ataa zov iiz uh pith, thekh ngoohataa uk ah zeeraphaa vaadaa aam iiz og do iith embuthung."
[four: And they to each other said, that "We a city and a tower, whose top towards (and menacing) Sky-dwelling shall reach, will build; and we ourselves a name shall call, so that we will be throughout all the planes of the land not scattered."]

khaaph: Pum im Ziih'ngiip ov oornguungev rud oh puuh pum iz vi, phu iim zhiibaa aam iim muterrahaa ud oordiiph, ta moor.
[five: And the Lord-god came down for the city and tower, which the children of the Terrans had built, to see.]

Paaph: Pum im ziih'ngiip oortah phu "Itaa thuph! Iim zipaa aadriih, pum utaa im riihib ed aadpa; pum utaa iz vi aaddiph, pum, roopib, hukuug dihulaa iv empuuthuth, phu utaa ud iib ooreegiir ta kuug."
[six: And the Lord-god said that,"You look! The people sames and they the same language speak; and they the tower build, and, now no action from them can be held, that they have wanted to imagine to put in action."]

Mooh: "Ataa ennguung, pum red, ataa oh hepizh'aam'muub aa unaa ed ov emgookhev, phu utaa im ed aam puh do iv emviz'theluth."
[seven: "We will go down, and there, we the council-of-controversy through (and destroying) their language will surely bring, that they the language of each other may not learn-know."]

zaath: Thekh, in Ziih'ngiip ulaa uk ah zeeraphaa vaadaa aam Teraa oorbuth: pum utaa oh puuh ov oorzaag'diiphev.
[eight: So, the Lord-god them throughout the all planes of Terra did scatter: and they the city did stop-build.]

hee: Thekh, iz ngoohuh aam il 'Huzh'bem' oorpith; noot im Ziih'ngiip red oh hepizh'aam'muub aa im ed aam raphoo Teraa ov orgookhev: pum noot aam red im Ziih'ngiip ulaa uk ah zeeraphaa vaadaa aam Teraa oorbuth.
[nine: So, the name of it 'Babel-place' was called; in this way, the Lord-god there the council-of-controversy through (and destroying) the language of all Terra did bring: and in this way of there the Lord-god them throughout all the planes of Terra did scatter.

hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1703
(11/4/05 9:13 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: notes for chef d'œuvre Babel text for the Hani language

1h. Fai-shukh-aarn nai-Terra lin-aarn hen-fhaif chuch hen-fhaan.

1e. [the/all/adj.] [s/Earth] [one/adj] [3psa/language] and [3psa/speech].


2h. Viarr, ri nai-neg shaih-hiuman-aa-im fai-rrach-haur hen-bek, ri nai-hen-aa fai-kah-gfaan Shinar-im hen-chuj-m'ha shiah-nab chuch hen-mosh-m'ha chai-nup.

2e. As, [past] [s/group] [a/human/plural/of] [the/east/from] [3psa/journey], past [s/3p/pl] [the/land/in] [Shinar/of] [3psa/find/3poa] [a/plane] and [3psa/dwell/3poa] [d.o./there].


3h. Ri nai-hen-aa hen-rukh-m'ha kha chai-laam, "Re nai-mur m'chaun-m'ha chai-shir-aa chuch shaohsh-aarn mur-khaumsam'ha chai-hen-aa." Nai-hen-aa chai-turr-aa-viarr hen-shiarr-m'ha chai-shir-aa chuch chai-orr-chup-viarr hen-shiarr-m'ha chai-ull.

3e. [past] [s/3p/pl] [3psa/say/3poa/reflexive] [d.o./this] [imperative] [s/1p] [1psa/make/3poa] [d.o./brick/pl] and [complete/adj] [1psa/fire/3poa] [D.O/3p/pl] [s/3p/pl] [the/stone/pl/as] [3psa/use/3poa] [d.o./brick/pl] and [d.o./solid/oil/as] [3psa/use/3doa] [d.o/morter].


4h. Ri nai-hen-aa hen-rukh-m'ha chai-laam, "Re nai-mur mur-chi mur-chaul-m'ha chai-jiahn chuch chai-naukh tai-faat hauitia nai-mur fai-kuut-aa-khe hen-bog-m'ha; re nai-mur mur-chi mur-gaif-m'ha chai-llauhn uukh haatia khai-mur-aa kurr-aarn fai-nekhrhof fai-terra-im mur'rrib.

4e. [past] [s/3p/pl] [3psa/say/3pd.o.a] [d.o./this] [imperative] [s/1p/pl] [1p/for] [1psa/build/3poa] [d.o./city] and [d.o./tower] [possessive/relative clause marker] [future/desire/affirmative] [3psa/top] [d.o./heaven/pl] [s3pa/reach/d.o.a]; [imperative] [s/1p] [1p/for] [1psa/make/d.o.a] [d.o./name] so [not/affirm] [passive/1p/pl] [away/adj] [prep/surface/on] [prep/Earth/of] [1psa/scatter].


5e. Ri Na nai-Rraohm hen-raos uukh nai-hen h'-gfirr-m'ha chai-jiahn chuch chai-naukh, chai-faat ri-rait fai-hiuman-im nai-chaach-aa hen-chauul-m'ha.

5h. [past] Lord [s/God] [3psa/descend] so [s/3p] [3psa/see/d.o.a] [d.o./city] and [d.o./tower] [d.o./relativiser] [past/anterior] [prep/human/of] [s/child/pl] [3psa/build/d.o.a].

6e. Ri na nai-Rraohm hen-rukh-m'ha chai-laam, "fai-shukh-aarn nai-hiuman-aa hen-chan chuch hen-fhiaf; haa-hau-ro-tia khai-haamrhaohch, chai-faat ri-rait nai-hen-aa h'-siaj-m'ha, hen-haurr h'-mia-naohs-m'ha.

6h. [past] Lord [s/God] [3psa/say/d.o.a] [d.o./this] [prep/all/adj] [s/humam/pl] [3psa/unite] and [3psa/language]; [neg/fut/det/aff] [passive/nothing], [d.o./relative clause maker] [past/anterior] [s/3p/pl] [3psa/imagine/d.o.a] [3p/from] [3psa/away/hold/d.o.a].

7h. "Re nai-mur-aa m'-raos chuch nu-paarn mur-kaf-m'ha tai-hen chai-fhiaf, uukh haa-hau-ro-tia nai-hen-aa h'-rhaarn-m'ha tai-ges chai-fhaan."

7e [imp] [s/1p/pl] [1psa/descend] and [there/adj] [1psa/confuse/d.o.a] [possessive/3p] [d.o./language] so [neg/fut/det/aff] [s/3p/pl] [3psa/understand/d.o.a] [possessive/other] [d.o./speech].


8h. Uukh, ri Na nai-Rraohm kurr-aarn fai-nekhrh-of fai-terra-im mur-'-rrib-m'ha chai-hen-aa: chuch ri nai-hen-aa h'-llaig-m'ha fai-jiahn-im chai-chaul.

8e. So, [past] Lord [s/God] [away/adj] [prep/surface/on] [prep/Earth/of] [3psa/this appostrophe is for the Roman alphabet; it's not needed in the Hani script;1 r and 2r's are separate letters in Hani/scatter/d.o.a] [d.o./3p/pl] and [past] [s/3p/pl] [3psa/stop/d.o.a] [prep/city/of] [d.o./build].


9h. Rhau, ri khai-Babel, nai-faat hen'-sem-m'ha chai-kaf, nai-hen h'-pukh-m'ha; rrum ri Na nai-Rraohm shukh-aarn fai-terra-im hem-kaf-m'ha chai-fhiat: chuch ri Na nai-Rraom kurr-aarn fai-nekhrh- fai-terra-im hem'-rrib-m'ha chai-hen-aa.

9e. Therefore, [past] [passive/Babel], [s/relative clause marker] [3psa/mean/d.o.a] [d.o./confuse], [s/3p] [3psa/call/d.o.a]; because [past] Lord [s/God] [all/adj] [prep/Earth/of] [3psa/confuse/d.o.a] [d.o./language] and [past] Lord [s/God] [away/adj] [prep/surface/on] [prep/Earth/of] [3psa/scatter/d.o.a] [d.o./3p/pl.]

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 345
(11/4/05 9:30 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: notes for chef d'œuvre Very nice!

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 346
(11/5/05 3:50 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: back to Ragi OK, back to Ragi. Back to really basic -- what letters are in the alphabet.

Vowels
A (usually short)
AI (long)
E (usually short) I have found no examples of words starting or ending with E.
EI (long)
I (long)
O (long)
U (listed in the Pronunciation appendix as 'oo', would that count as 'long'?)

Consonants
B
('C' occurs only at the beginning of a few names. In English, 'C' is an ambiguous letter, being redundant with 'k' and 's'. What does it mean when a Ragi word is transliterated into English with a 'C'? Can we assume this is the same Ragi letter as 'K'?)
Ch
D
('F' occurs only at the beginning of two personal names.)
G
H
J
K
('L' only occurs in a few names.)
M
N
P
R
S
T
('V' occurs in a few names.)
W

These consonants have been found ending words:
D, N, M, S, T

I suspect there will be some revisions needed to the Mongolian font. Starting with characters for AI and EI, which should be treated as single letters in Ragi, and dropping Sh.

Am I missing anything?

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1709
(11/5/05 11:57 pm)
Reply | Edit New Post ragi again I have found that the CV pattern in Ragi is very strong. So strong that few if any non-nasal consonants ever occure post-vocalically. The thought occured that perhaps those words containing the post-vocal consonants are not ragi, but loan words from the dreadded east.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 351
(11/6/05 5:33 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: ragi again

Quote:I have found that the CV pattern in Ragi is very strong.

That would be Consonant-Vowel, yes?

Quote:few if any non-nasal consonants ever occur post-vocalically.

The only nasal consonants we have in Ragi are N and M, right? I'm not sure what 'post-vocalically' means. What surprises me is that syllables can end with consonants that are never used to end words. I really don't understand the syllable-formation in Ragi. (Or, I keep expecting this to make sense.)

Then there is the consonant-followed-by-H issue. I can accept this (as two separate sounds) between syllables, but at the beginning of a word? How is that supposed to be pronounced? That is difficult for me, being a native English speaker, and more used to several consonants together. But it seems so unlikely for Ragi speakers.

Quoteerhaps those words containing the post-vocal consonants are not ragi, but loan words from the dreaded east.

Or, I'm pretty sure that only recently has Ragi become the dominant language in the West. So there are probably loan words from other Western languages, too.

I tentatively mark C, F, V, and L as used only in names with foreign (non-Ragi) influence, and have some suspicion about W and E.

Have you ever found anything resembling a grammatical pattern in Ragi?

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 551
(11/6/05 7:43 pm)
Reply New Post re: Ragi again
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>I have found that the CV pattern in Ragi is very strong.
>That would be Consonant-Vowel, yes?

that's the way I learned it...but there i be meanings I don't know...yet.


>Have you ever found anything resembling a grammatical pattern in Ragi?

it may be we're looking for correlations ("this ethnic group speaks this dialect, while their neighbors borrowed words with that accent to them")....while the nature of atevi may be to flummox those very efforts.

yes, CJC says that there are ethnic groups (Edi, Ragi)...but far more often than she says that, she tells us that man'chi determines associations, and that atevi society revolves around man'chi.

on Earth, with humans, we can at least try to draw boundary lines of ethnic groups & dialects\languages...but the atevi may be too fluid for that.


did that make any sense, nadiin?

have some  , please.

hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1710
(11/6/05 8:25 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: re: Ragi again Sorry, CV means Consonant-Vowel as you surmised. Vocalic refers to vowels so post-vocalic means immediately after a vowel. And n & m are the only nasals in Ragi that I have seen, I don't remember if there is an ng or not, but it would be a nasal sound if it were present.

I think Nand'Cherryh has given us a few clues to sort out the apparent repetition of words: homophones and different dialects or even languages.

The easiest way to do this is to get a data base made of utterances and persons that utter them, with notes to ethnic background if it is listed. Two years or so ago, I went through the first 6 books and highlighted all the ragi utterences. I still have those books and could do this, but it will take a few days to compile it. Once a data base is made up it could be shared and then real analysis can begin. if anyone else has an idea on how to accomplish this. Now would be a good time to discuss it.

The grammar reminds me a small bit of Japanese with the honorifics and all. But, this one will take a bit of work to hammer into place. Plus, Nand'Cherryh is working on the next book as we discuss this. What she adds in alter what we propose. Perhaps we can discuss with her and find out what she'd like to happen.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 352
(11/7/05 6:56 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Ragi again

Quote:The easiest way to do this is to get a data base made of utterances and persons that utter them, with notes to ethnic background if it is listed.

Most of that is in nand'Rodlox's website. There are a few new additions here on this thread that may not yet have actually been added on the website. I will check my notes this afternoon -- I found one or two new lines recently that I don't remember if I have posted here or not.

Lately, nand'Rodlox's website and this thread have been the central collection of Ragi material.

Quotelus, Nand'Cherryh is working on the next book as we discuss this.

Plus one book already at the printer -- meaning more Ragi we can neither view nor influence at the moment! Unless someone (like perhaps nand'Spence) can sweet-talk her out of a preview of the Ragi words used in Pretender? That wouldn't give away anything of the plot.

I nominate nand'Spence as our liason with nand'Cherryh, because he has experience working with her, and credibility with her.

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 534
(11/7/05 10:26 am)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Ragi again Let me review my copy of Pretender & see what Ragi there is to pass on.

Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 535
(11/7/05 11:37 am)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Ragi again From Pretender. Italics are CJC's.

Proverb:

Quote:Kaid' airuni manomini ad heiji

"It is hard to see the provinces from the capitol."



Jago is speaking to Bren:

Quote:"We should go back upstairs, nandi, where we have some control over the perimeter."

The operationally dual we, with the -ta, the numerical compensator, as if she were going with him but as if Banichi were not.




Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 536
(11/7/05 12:00 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Ragi again An allied clan (the folk of Dur) calls out:

Quote:"Hai! The cheer went up, to a man....
"Hai for Dur!"...



Later on, Bren & Algini were discussing logistics:

Quote:Algini lapsed into the passive voice precisely where the critical who would logically be other Guild, as clearly as if he had shouted it. Guild or operatives of the aiji, which would still be Guild--were implied to be taking those measures, out in front..."

Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 537
(11/7/05 12:27 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Ragi again Banichi speaks to Bren:

Quote:"....was a great favor to them. They express deep gratitude."

Murdi. That gratitude word, different than man'chi.


In the hasdrawad chambers:

Quote:The eis thrummed, three insistent strokes. The vibrations overran their own echoes, and hurt human ears.

It hurt atevi hearing, too, perhaps far worse than that....

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 355
(11/7/05 12:59 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: Ragi again Oh, wonderful Sk8er! Thank you!

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Sabina B
Shai-Shan Service Staff
Guild Assassin
Posts: 2559
(11/7/05 2:03 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: Ragi again Buäääh.
And we have to wait till next February to read Pretender.

You have so tickled my curiosity.

キャプテン・フューチャー全集
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 554
(11/7/05 2:14 pm)
Reply New Post Re: murdi
>Murdi

reading that...I can't help but wonder if the current "Aiji" has a name derived from that or a variant of murdi.

just a thought.

Dec 24, 2006#8hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1746
(11/15/05 9:09 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: um, Hrhspence-ji...a clarification

Quote:to prevent confusion...we did not say "please command efforts of compiling and translating Ragi"....we said "please join the translation team.



This is the way I took it, part of the team effort.

Each of us has strengths. I have created Conlangs that have been approved by Nand'Cidjei-ma. It makes sense that I would contact her, again. I have to note that more than one of the Linguists here has considerable talent to analyse the small amount of data avaliable to us: Rodlox and Zen9 in particular.

Were I to create a team on my own, I would ask you two to join. I am happy to have been asked to be on your team.

The problem I had earlier, (when I was running the project all on my own, when I owned the project and answered to no one but Nand'Carolyn) was that it was too large of a project. Seeing the project taking off is very exciting to me.

I see Rodlox and Zen9 doing most of the analysis and showing the rest of us their views on what is seen. I see the rest of us chiping in with ideas. Notice this leaves me in the sidelines. The analysis is the most intensive part. I am happy to watch others carryout what they are happy to accomplish. I tried it on my own 2 years ago and it is much better with more minds crunching the data. I'll just stay on the edge and watch.

What I can do is what I really like better, taking the grammar and the vocabulary and extending them into a whole language. I could have done this on my own. I could rip off the work done here and steam roller over the top of everyone and give it to CJ Cherryh and say it was all my work, with bearly a mention of what you have done. And it sounds like some of you think that is what I am doing.

I propose that it will take less time if we organize this. I am willing to do part of the project. Perhaps Nepenti could take a leading role as she is respected by the whole team.

Edited by: hrhspence at: 11/15/05 9:18 pm
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 600
(11/15/05 10:44 pm)
Reply New Post an apology to all of the group and...
Please, do not misunderstand.

(reading my post, even I misunderstood)

We welcome your participation in this effort.

It is possible that some of us saw your bold manner, and some of us may've mistaken that for you taking control of the project.

This is, I suspect, not your intent, nor your wish to do so.

I think organization amongst us all may indeed be useful...though, and this is simply a note, not a declaration, some of us early on had thought to compile our notes separately, compiling them later.

I hope that helps in some way.

ps: when I was ready to begin posting Ragi words on my website, it was shown first to nand':cherryh for approval.

nadiin, let us all have some  together.

hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1748
(11/16/05 12:43 am)
Reply | Edit
New Post a return to Ragi? Accepted Rodlox-ji. I just want to see a decent, filled out version of CJ's language. It is a lot easier when we work together.

So, does anyone have a translation of those 4 sentences? I would actually like more than one version when I propose the translations to her. And any questions on grammar. She mentioned something about the kurdi (or murdi) issue. "Probably dilectical" she said, so Zen should be happy that's what he was saying.

Sabina B
Shai-Shan Service Staff
Guild Assassin
Posts: 2565
(11/16/05 8:21 am)
Reply
New Post Re: a return to Ragi? Well, lets try:
{Bren} "Aiji-ma, jis asdi parei'manima pag' nand' Stani-captain?"
{Tabini} "Masji sig' triti didamei'shi."
Invader, p. 176 (Paperback, the pages are different for the hardcover)
"Honored Lord, is there anything in particular you wish to say to Captain Ramirez?" (Translated the aiji-ma too, so maybe we should go even further, "Honored Highlord" as to not to confuse the aiji with the other lords.
"We expect acceptance of the entire Treaty." (The royal "we", otherwise I'd go for "I". Btw, I think the ending "shi" is due to felicity reasons, otherwise there would be four words and eight syllables in the sentences.)

{Bren} "Daiti, nadiin tekikin, madighi tritin distitas pas ajiimasisit, das, das, das, magji das."
{Mogari-nai} "Pai sat, paidhi-ma."
Invader, p. 176 (Paperback)
"Attention, Misters/Sirs Technicans, please transmit to them the Treaty files I send you." (I still think the "das" sequence is another instance of making the sentences felicitous.)
"At once, Honored Interpreter."

[Bren] "Naighai maighi-shi, Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in a
Invader, p. 212 (Paperback)
"Urgent meeting, Miss Deana." (Bren gives us the translation.)
I give up on that one, I don't know, maybe at another time, but I think th eproblem lays in the fact that "meeting" and "calendar" are the same word (probably "Naighai") changing meaning according to context, with calendar probably being the base meaning, therefore, when the set phrase for "urgent meeting" was scrambled, it defaulted back to calendar since "pregnant" usually can't be used with the word. And "maighi" conveys a sense of sonn/close, the ending "shi" turning "Naighai" into meeting, while another ending would have turn it into "pregnant" (close to birth, soon to be born)

I agree on the other example.

Next course, the last course: Jase asked one servant for two bowls, baffling the young woman considerably.
"Asso shi madihiin-sa," Bren said quietly. "Mai, nadi."
"Mai, nadi, saijuri." Jase echoed him and made a courteous patch on the utterance, with good grace.
Inheritor p. 90
The first is a conditional request and irregular courtesy plurals, Bren says so later on the same page.
The problem is, we don't know what Jase wanted to ask, therfore we don't know what Bren's utterance means. Did Jase want another bowl, or did he want nothing at all, or did he want something entirely different?
But the difference between Jase's sentence (we don't know) and Bren's correction is clearly the "shi" again. (Damnable "shi" seems to be entirely to versatile.)
"Mai, nadi, saijuri." -> "Please, Miss, forgive me."

キャプテン・フューチャー全集
Edited by: Sabina B at: 11/16/05 8:23 am
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 402
(11/16/05 10:42 am)
Reply
New Post Re: a return to Ragi I see we are back to business again. Good!

Sabina proposes what I think is the third interpretation for the mystery word 'shi'! (Unless I lost count -- That would never do!) Maybe when we understand that word, the rest of the language will fall into place. :lol

Which leads to phoneme/alphabet questions:
How is 'shi' pronounced? (Or, in general, what about those consonant + H combinations, especially at the beginning of a word?)

What sound does 'C' represent? (Nand'Spence writes 'Nand'Cidjei-ma', which suggests he (like me) tends to read it like in English: 'K' before A, O, U; 'S' before E or I. But is this true in Ragi?)

Is there still something nand'Spence was trying to volunteer me for? Or is that past now?

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 1749
(11/16/05 1:40 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: a return to Ragi I know that Nand'Cidjei-ma speaks French and Latin enough to be influenced by their pronunciation of the C. And as I teach French for a living, I am influenced by it as well. The other possibility is the Celtic aproach: use a C for a K sound, in which case I should spell it Nand'Sidjei-ma, which I will do from now on, to avoid confusion.

So, the questions I will pose are:

1, how is C pronounced? French style or Celtic [with more of an explanation and with examples]

2, what is the translation of shi? 1, 2, or 3, [with the examples from this list.]

3, which translations of the following sentences [from Invader, p. 176 (Paperback)] are closest to your original intent?

This will be a fairly long letter, is there anything else that I should put in the letter?

Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 330
(11/16/05 7:45 pm)
Reply New Post Ragi First off I'm a dabbler not an expert, but my dabblings lead me to realise just what a monumental task constructing any language is.

Second I cannot explain in words what is just a feeling. But I'm reasured by mule's words.

Quote:We welcome your participation in this effort

we do indeed, evey voice, every perspective is of value.

Quote:It is possible that some of us saw your bold manner, and some of us may've mistaken that for you taking control of the project.


This is indeed the more vocalisable part of my concerns.

Please try not to take offense at my words, they are inexact expressions of feelings and words can but rarely quite reach to describe a feeling at the best of times.

Quote:This is the way I took it, part of the team effort.


Understood.
I stand ready and willing to work with you on this, I assume we are to work here.

Alas at the mo' I have not time and no idea what next to say. I'd have to re-read what I've already said on this thread just to put myself in the right state of mind. Tomorrow I might have that time.

Essentialy hrhspence your questions seem the right ones for now.

1 a further definition of pronounciations
2 the meaning of a often occuring word 'shi'
3 an assement of which attempt at translation is closest to her orriginal meaning.

I must say I'd be rather disappointed if it turned out 'C' is said like the French.

Is there anything else....well you can give our regards to the Goddess

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 405
(11/16/05 9:02 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: Ragi I'm sure we will all think of more questions later! That looks like a good list for now.

Quote:Nand'Sidjei-ma

'Cidjei' did look cooler. But I suppose the new spelling will have to do until we know how to pronounce 'C'.

I will have to find a letter for 'C' in any case, because it appears in names. I already assigned the letter for C to Ch. Oops. Well, as far as I know, Asicho and I are the only ones who ever use the font, so it is still easy enough to rearrange things.

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 331
(11/17/05 5:22 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Ragi How ironic, convergence in action!

You see 'C' has indeed been used to transcribe both the sound 'k', 's' and the sounds 'ch' and 'kh'.
In Old English for one they used 'c' and 'cc', and even 'sc' for 'sh'. SO you had 'fisc' for 'fish', 'ric' for 'rich' etc....

Also 'g' was used for the sounds 'g', 'y', 'gh' and in endings 'i'.

the mule
Paidhi-aiji
Posts: 4483
(11/17/05 9:22 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Ragi Certainly, nadi, some interpretations of the linguistic knot of Shi will be most welcome. 

I have generally taken C as a hard celtic CH up 'til now, thus reading Cenedi as Ken'dy

Edited by: the mule at: 11/17/05 9:26 am
Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 569
(11/17/05 11:05 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Ragi A quick note, for those who may not have discovered it yet: soundfiles on Shejidan's website to listen to Herself's own pronunciations:

The sound files are buried deep in Haut's (hysterically funny!!) MidSouthCon report:
www.shejidan.com/features...unday.html

Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 608
(11/18/05 12:10 am)
Reply New Post Re: the Sound Files
Many thanks, Sk8er, for posting the sound file.


(a side note: listening to the entry "Jago," I never thought someone such as Herself had a milder form of something that I always have had: I noted the use of "um" and clipping the end off a few words. I say this because I am startled. I still have nothing but respect for Herself)

(that Herself would use "um" in a sentance, and pausing in the midst of a thought...it reinforces that fact that she is human (and not simply a Divinity)....though her humanity was always evident in her writing)

oh bother...I'm just digging myself in deeper, aren't I? or is my thought getting across?
*hiding myself*

shlinas
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1483
(11/18/05 12:49 am)
Reply New Post Re: the Sound Files So, I had to jump on here and add how cool I thought those sound files were. It was interesting to see which names I had gotten right and which not (Cenedi was one of the latter...*sigh*)

I'm amazed at you guys working on this language. I LOVE all things Atevi, however, I wouldn't make it long as a paidhi. What would the Atevi do with an individual such as myself who has numerical dyslexia (or discalcula for the proper term, as *numerical dyslexia* is rather an oxymoron)?

I am in awe of people who can speak in numbers...

(Sorry, I like to lurk in this thread, but feel like I can offer very little in posting. I just had to pose that question. Would they view me as some few the mentally handicapped?)



Edited by: shlinas at: 11/18/05 12:50 am
Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 572
(11/18/05 12:54 am)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Re: the Sound Files Shlinas wonders:

Quote:What would the Atevi do with an individual such as myself who has numerical dyslexia


I know exactly what would happen: you would be known as "CJ Cherryh", who specializes in "Tau Cetian math", & needs Jane Fancher to keep her books straight for her!! Because :cherryh sure can't do it Herself!! in

Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 573
(11/18/05 1:01 am)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Re: the Sound Files Rodlox notes:

Quote:that Herself would use "um" in a sentence, and pausing in the midst of a thought


Carolyn speaks very deliberately, with much thought. Even casual conversations are well-thought out & phrased for maximum impact. She is a storyteller not only through the written word, but via spoken language. Herself is a master of punchlines, phrasing thoughts for maximum impact, and integrating complex concepts into her conversations. But, I think you all know this already!

shlinas
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1484
(11/18/05 1:36 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Re: the Sound Files

Quote:you would be known as "CJ Cherryh", who specializes in "Tau Cetian math", & needs Jane Fancher to keep her books straight for her!!



in in in in

Oh, that makes me feel so much better!

~Shlinas~
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 609
(11/18/05 2:40 am)
Reply New Post Re: Re: the Sound Files
I have no doubt that She speaks deliberately -- a person of Her high intellect naturally would.

I apologize...in my startlement, I spoke poorly.

if you like, I will delete my earlier post.

Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 574
(11/18/05 3:07 am)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Re: the Sound Files No, no, no! Rodlox-ji! I think something is getting lost in the interface here! I'm certain I understand you better than you are worried about. Your post is fine! It is accurate! It is interesting! Please do not delete it!! I LOVE your post, :love especially your comment about Her humanity!! It is an incredible, touching compliment about the person I know & love!!

Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 610
(11/18/05 3:17 am)
Reply New Post Oh.
Oh....that dratted interface again. (or my own sheep-brain)
I swear, a Kea's smarter than me.

I fully do mean what I said about Her humanity. Rest assured of that.

So...my post is interesting, eh? Thanks...I am certain of it.

Nice to know you understand me...seems to be better than I know myself.

(and no, in case you were worried, I wasn't putting the moves on you)

have nice days, delightful birthday  , and wonderfully tasty  !

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 415
(11/18/05 10:23 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Sound Files Thank you for finding those sound files!

So some of the names don't follow exactly the Pronunciation Guide - Banichi with accent on first syllable, Algini with soft G. Sometimes proper names are like that.

I hope it doesn't happen much with ordinary words.

Dec 24, 2006#10Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 801
(1/27/06 7:14 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi Well, yes, it is also possible that Tano was named for his grandmother, and nobody thinks that unusual. So different from this culture.

____________________________
From Dark to Dark is our voyage.
And after the Dark, o brothers, o sisters,
Come we home.
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 790
(1/27/06 10:57 am)
Reply New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi
there's a bunch of languages here on Earth where the names are gender-neutral.

more than just the Sam & Pat of English.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 804
(1/27/06 11:12 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi Why not? But English is not one of those cultures.

I just recently learned that 'Lupe' (short for "Guadalupe') could also be a boy's name in Spanish. But the guy sounded a little defensive about it, so maybe it isn't common as a boy's name. Or maybe he was just tired of Anglos asking stupid questions. ;)

____________________________
From Dark to Dark is our voyage.
And after the Dark, o brothers, o sisters,
Come we home.
Chomiji Kaharingai
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1036
(1/27/06 11:20 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi An odd, perhaps recent social-nomenclature facet of English, and esp. U.A. English, is that once a formerly masculine name becomes popular as a feminine name, it becomes suspect as a masculine name.

Cf. Sidney/Sydney, Leslie, Morgan, Drew, Darcy, Robin, Hillary, Vivian, Ashley, Beverly

On the other hand, I have heard that "Julian" and "Christian" used to be feminine names.

- Cho


My idea of heaven is a library with sushi service

Neco the Nightwraith
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1625
(2/10/06 12:45 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi I was reading the site recently and noticed that the definitions of the two mentioned planets 'Esili' and 'Maudette' were the same.

I can't remember now, so maybe someone can clear this up:

Are they the same planet? Because I think (but can't be sure) that two seperate planets were mentioned, the second from the sun and the next one further out (I'm assuming the fourth).

Someone straighten me out if I'm wrong.





Dancing Cobra

Asicho
Bujavid Security
Posts: 350
(2/10/06 1:27 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi I would have to check, but yeah, I do think there were two planets mentioned besides the atevi homeworld. They reminded me of Venus and Mars.

However, I think Maudette/Maudit* and Esili are the same planet (the Mars-equivalent). One's the Mosphei' name and one the Ragi, one believes. Could be wrong...

*(Two different spellings used, either because of lack of proofreading or because the name changed with time.)

"For me the purest and truest art in the world is science fiction."
--CJ Cherryh, Visible Light
Edited by: Asicho at: 2/10/06 1:28 am
shlinas
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1751
(2/10/06 12:57 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi

Quote:One's the Mosphei' name and one the Ragi, one believes.



Esili does sound like a Ragi name. Have you noticed that they all end in vowels? Mostly -i or -o (although, Bindanda is a nice example of the exception to that rule). The few names that don't that I can think of are places (ex. Taiben). I can't help but think that "Bren" must be such a foreign sounding name to them!



~Shlinas~
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 876
(2/10/06 1:54 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi I can't help thinking the "BR" at the beginning is hard to pronounce, too.

____________________________
From Dark to Dark is our voyage.
And after the Dark, o brothers, o sisters,
Come we home.
Asicho
Bujavid Security
Posts: 356
(2/11/06 1:58 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi Yeah, they don't seem to have very many two-consonant clusters. I remember they had a hard time pronouncing the name "Yolanda", though they did call her both "'Landa-ji" and "Mercheson-paidhi". So maybe the reason that was hard to pronounce was the initial "Y" which I don't recall encountering much in Ragi. Nobody *mentions* "Bren" being hard to say, but, then, they probably wouldn't.

"For me the purest and truest art in the world is science fiction."
--CJ Cherryh, Visible Light
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 880
(2/11/06 4:24 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi The only time I remember seeing "Y" in Ragi is in one of Jase's earliest attempts at the language (and therefore possibly not correct pronunciation). So I have "Y" listed as a 'foreign' letter.

____________________________
From Dark to Dark is our voyage.
And after the Dark, o brothers, o sisters,
Come we home.
freekdragon
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 75
(2/14/06 12:30 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi Was Bren's name perhaps a shortened version of something longer that the atevi found hard or annoying to pronounce, thus resulting in "Bren"?

Maybe 'Brendan' or 'Brennan'? (I can't think of other versions of the name at the moment, but those were the first two to come to mind).





I have fallen hopelessly in love with C J Cherryh's character Bren Cameron from the "Foreigner" series. That's where my handle comes from. . .the "Paidhi" does it for me.

-Unknown

freekdragon
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 77
(2/14/06 9:08 am)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I was looking at the names list, and I know for sure from conversation that 'Casirnabri' and 'Gesirimu' were female, and 'Marin' was male.

oops, sorry for the double post. *headdesk*





I have fallen hopelessly in love with C J Cherryh's character Bren Cameron from the "Foreigner" series. That's where my handle comes from. . .the "Paidhi" does it for me.

-Unknown

Edited by: freekdragon at: 2/14/06 9:10 am
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 827
(2/14/06 12:36 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage
double-posts are fine.


-Rodlox, who really needs to get back to work on the site.

freekdragon
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 116
(3/13/06 7:22 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage 'ami' means 'mama'. It's from Pretender. I can't remember the page number. I'll try to find it. It was spoken by Cajeiri.



Edited by: freekdragon at: 3/13/06 7:22 pm
Sabina B
Shai-Shan Service Staff
Guild Assassin
Posts: 2710
(3/13/06 8:24 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage "Where is ami?" Cajeiri
Bren's thought 'Mama, that was.', p.228

You know, in German the most dimunitive version of mother (used by the youngest children) is "Mami".

キャプテン・フューチャー全集
hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 2115
(3/13/06 10:15 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage That sounds like the english mommy and take the m off the front and you'd get ami.

I do wish Nand'Sidjei-ma would answer our three questions, then we could move on with our Ragi project.

hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 2117
(3/14/06 1:08 am)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

OK, I have been working on the script for written Hani and I think that is a good place to start. That is the word 'Rhaurr' which is a hani masculine name.

Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 345
(3/14/06 8:11 am)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I think people should'nt get hung on the letter 'Y' and its use or not. Atevi as we see it is transcribed into the approximate sounds the English alphabet can handle.
I see no reason for Atevi not to have the sound 'Y' represents.
Our exposure to the language is limited and its entirely possible the sound is not used much, while others are clearly used a lot.

Felicitous Sk8er
Ice Queen Assassin
Posts: 982
(3/14/06 8:40 am)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote:I do wish Nand'Sidjei-ma would answer our three questions, then we could move on with our Ragi project.


Spence-ji, why don't you email her again? One has mentioned it several times now & hates to bring it up again. Please be sure you put COMLINK or Ragi Project or something very obviously not :spam into your header so it doesn't get trashed without being opened. Also send a copy to fancher*at*cherryh*dot*com to increase your odds of attention being paid to it.

Sabina B
Shai-Shan Service Staff
Guild Assassin
Posts: 2715
(3/14/06 1:00 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage 'Spence, that Hani looks great and very haniish, with the slashes and dots.

キャプテン・フューチャー全集Hani Language Site

Ragi Language Site

Ragi Sketch and Dictionary

The date I joined the original board: 12/04/02

Dec 24, 2006#12KabiuOne
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 23
(3/27/06 2:20 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I continue to think about mani-ma. Firstly, the suffix -ma is used almost always as a familiar honorific - sidi-ma; aiji-ma; mani-ma but it flows upwards? It is not gender specific.

I am currently re-reading Pretender; and, when I get to towards the end, I think that is where the mani-ma occurred w/Cajeiri's immediate parents.

I like this type of linguistic discovery quite a lot.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 1022
(3/27/06 2:31 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Yes, I would agree about -ma. Upwards, not only in that the person addressed is higher rank, but higher rank in one's own association. I would almost say, higher in one's direct chain of command, although there may be counterexamples.

____________________________
We have to grow flowers, because flowers are getting scarce.
Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 348
(3/27/06 5:29 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Napenti-ji

One stand assured and reassured Nadi. It will be appropriate I think to me at least, I would not presume to speak for others.

Certainly the Dutch say their 's' differently, sounding more like a kind of 'sh' sound to my English ears.

There are several ways to say just about every letter in the alphabet. Try saying the 's' sound an dmoving your tongue to different postions in your mouth and you'll see what I mean.

Arabic has a 's' sound that requires one to put your tongue on your gums, the blade of the tongue behind the lower front teeth and is a sound and letter distinct from the other 's' sound where the tip of the tongue is place behind the upper front teeth. In arabic there is a seperate letter for the 'sh' sound and thus when one sees 's' and 'h' together they pronounced seperately.

hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 2150
(3/27/06 9:15 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage The question is, Zen, is there a separate sh phoneme from the s? Or are they allophones of the same sound?

Does the sh deserve its own letter or is the environment of the h the cause of the sh sound to English speakers' ears?

I say the sh is a separate phoneme, that sounds halfway between the English and the Dutch sounds, at least in the dialect of the capitol. We do need to remember that there are other dialects out there.

KabiuOne
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 27
(4/1/06 12:11 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I found an interesting reference to -ma in Explorer last night. Jasi-ji has addressed Illisidi as Nand'Dowager - and Bren thinks that this is correct; not using -ma because Jase is no longer in her man'chi. So, slowly, one sees the -ma suffix as a personal inflection, as well as part of the political concept of association.

 (just because one so loves the bath scene in Pretender!)

Kokipy
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 51
(4/3/06 2:49 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Yes, Bren notes that nandi is remote, and ma is personal and so no longer proper for Jase as ship-aiji.

KabiuOne
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 29
(4/7/06 11:14 am)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I have finally finised a re-read of the series. My brain lapsed - it was not Cajeri who called his mom mani-ma, but Tabini who called Illisidi mani-ma.

And I noted that Algini called Bren aiji-ma - a first.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 1044
(4/7/06 7:23 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Whoa, the idea of Tabini addressing anyone as -ma boggles the mind!

As for Algini, that is being discussed in it's own thread.

____________________________
We have to grow flowers, because flowers are getting scarce.
Edited by: Nepenti at: 4/7/06 7:26 pm
KabiuOne
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 33
(4/8/06 12:15 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Thank you, Napenti-ji. One will go there to read the discussion. I was just relating one more instance of the -ma suffix with the Algini reference.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 1045
(4/8/06 1:45 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Looking at the relationship between aishi, association, and aishidi, associate, I am wondering whether -di suffix means 'person'. Along the same lines, we have:
nadi (cf. nai, noble person)
nandi
and possibly Babsidi

There are an equal number of cases where -di doesn't have that sense:
dajdi, active ingredient in the dowager's famous tea
mishidi, awkward, lacking finesse
damighindi, flavor of the orange fruit sweets
kurdi/murdi, gratitude (from kur, debt)

Still, I think there are enough words to make a connection between -di and 'person'.

____________________________
We have to grow flowers, because flowers are getting scarce.
hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 2174
(4/8/06 2:26 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage perhaps not person but actor or agent, much like -er in english: new yorker, worker, sweeper, etc.

Then dajdi could be a chemical that daj's. what ever that turns out to be. And kurdi/murdi is the feeling that one has when one incurs a debt to someone else: graditude. Not all occurances of the morpheme needs to be logical to us, the non-Ragi speakers.

Edited by: hrhspence at: 4/8/06 2:43 pm
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 1046
(4/8/06 3:29 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Yes, that works. And not every single word ending in -di has to necessarily come from that same root.

____________________________
We have to grow flowers, because flowers are getting scarce.
Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 349
(4/9/06 6:06 am)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Hmmm....could by like the '-y' ending in English or yes, -'er', or '-ness', or quite a few endings which can transform the meaning of a word.

Warning though, we have '-eth' in old, middle and antiquated modern english. But it s confusing since there are infact serveral different ending types that all have the 'th' sound, and it depends of the word too.

I mean there is no guarentee '-di' is the same in 'Kurdi' as it is in 'Tirnamardi'.

hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 2177
(4/9/06 3:09 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Several way to solve for that could be: a, add different meanings to the morphological form; b, ignore the morphology in inconvienient places.

Poofing out a language has a different set of problems than creating a language from scratch at the out set. I prefer the later, it takes less time and is more internally consistant. However if I wish to create an artificial language that looks natural, I will combine 2 or 3 artificial languages then alter the results a few times with historical changes.

If anyone has anymore ideas for the Ragi project, please post them quickly as I am going to poof out a prototype for Ragi this week; I'm on spring break and have the time.


chanur
hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 2182
(4/10/06 5:00 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Nepenti, Rodlox, zen, sabina, freek, asicho, neco, cho,sk8er-ji, Kokipy, vetch & mule

are the major contributers to this thread. I am missing some, so if you feel you have been slighted, remember I missed you accidentally, just put your name at the end of this list and you will be sited as contributers to the poofed out dictionary and gramatical sketch I am begining to write from this thread.

Thanks,

Spence


chanur
Xheralt
Bujavid Security
Posts: 198
(4/11/06 5:59 am)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Stray thought: one wants to append -sigpaidhi to Hank's name, a construction in the same form as sigaiji] What do our resident language /w/o/n/k/s/ experts think?



"Everything goes somewhere; I go everywhere.

...You can't stop the signal."

Mr. Universe, "Serenity"
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 1047
(4/11/06 6:32 am)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage in

But does that imply nobody listens to her? We wish!

____________________________
We have to grow flowers, because flowers are getting scarce.
Eskaybe
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 4
(4/12/06 12:35 am)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote:I have finally finised a re-read of the series. My brain lapsed - it was not Cajeri who called his mom mani-ma, but Tabini who called Illisidi mani-ma.


Quote: Whoa, the idea of Tabini addressing anyone as -ma boggles the mind!



Don't remember the mani-ma context but wonder if Tabini could be reminding Illsidi that he was in her manchi as a child but he is a child no more and why does she have to continue to make life difficult for him?

Xheralt
Bujavid Security
Posts: 206
(4/12/06 8:18 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage No, whoever you quoted was right the first time; Cajieri does routinely call Ilisidi "mani-ma", e.g. pp180, 215, and 279, Destroyer (hardcover). But you are correct that it is a first for Tabini to address her as such, as opposed to the usual transliteration of "Grandmother" -- or stylings on the order of "plague of my days"  .



"Everything goes somewhere; I go everywhere.

...You can't stop the signal."

Mr. Universe, "Serenity"
hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 2184
(4/13/06 9:47 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote:Stray thought: one wants to append -sigpaidhi to Hank's name, a construction in the same form as sigaiji. What do our resident language /w/o/n/k/s/ experts think?



[I like this so much that I am putting it into the poofed out lexicon.]

Now let me describe what it is that I am doing: I took the analysis of the linguists in this thread and printed it it up. I took Rodlox's web page proofed lexicon and printed it up. Then I determined that the basic syllable types of Ragi are as follows: v, cv, vc, cvc. Then I determined that the vowels are as follows: a, ai, e, ei, i, o, u and that the consonents are as follows: b, ch, d, dh, f, g, gh, h, j, k, l, m, n, p, r, s, sh, t, th, tr, dj, w.

I made a list a, ai, e, ei, i, o, u, ba, bai, be, bei, bi, bo, bu, etc, until all combinations were written.

I then dumped the list into an existing data base that held english, sotonok, zindieq, pavis, and oedhù. In the next four columns I dumped 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc, then 7, then 15, then 21. I sorted the 5 column bringing all the 1's together, the 2's etc, then the same for the 7, 15 and 21 columns. This randomized the ragi column. I copied the ragi, alphabetized the english then dumped the ragi back in. This created a proto-gloss of english to ragi.

I am NOT done yet.

Ferdinand de Saussure, a famous linguist, said "The bond unifying the signifier and the signified is arbitrary." He goes on to ask why does French use the word table and spanish use mesa? Why do we use raspberry and French use framboise? 90% of all words are arbitrary, as Saussure said. There is no rhyme or reason for most of our words. But some words like slither, spatter snap etc have onomatopoetic feeling that matches the meaning. My list is not only 100% arbitrary, but it doesn't yet have all of Nand'Sidjei-Aiji's words.

This phase of the project, making the onomatopoeia and the grammar, is called "hitting the lexicon with a hammer." In this case I will need a sledge hammer! This will change up to 15% of the proto-gloss, but keep the rest as it's random anyway.

Sometimes there is a giggle factor with this. The arbitrary word for Butt cheek ended up, randomly to be wedja and in the plural would be wedji! I am not ready to show what I have yet, but will be soon. I'm out looking for my hammer.



chanur