Shejidan / Is Lester Del Ray the real villian?

**Posted by xheralt** 7/06/2025 11:29 am

Something to consider while you’re laid up (although if incorrect may rile you up), an interesting video about the Western world’s fantasy genre. The narrator’s thesis is
“Lester Del Ray’s formulaic stylizing of Tolkein (not Tolkein himself) popularized the genre, then destroyed it.”Or so the OP says. youtu(dot)be/watch?v=_BBrDhgGz1kThe Del Ray formula was slavishly followed until GoT. George R. R. Martin is literally the anti-Tolkein, whatever Tolkein does, GRRM does the exact opposite; not at all unique, just another formula. Which was then slavishly followed by editors & corporate mega-publishing houses to make a quick buck. We’re finally getting into counter-counter formulas. But however many times it’s inverted or re-inverted, it’s still >that formula< dominating things.

It makes a certain amount of sense to me. Discuss.

**Posted by Aja Jin** 7/07/2025 9:50 am

There is certainly a lot of Euro-centric high fantasy. Tolkien got the trilogy format started, despite the fact he wanted LOTR to be published as a single volume. Del Rey published Kurtz's first Deryni trilogy in 1970, which IMO cemented the trilogy as a publishing form (which has lately expand from trilogies to longer series). Lots and lots of good and not so good work in the same trilogy formula, and mostly Euro high fantasy, has followed and continues (Tad Williams, Guy Gavel Kay, and so many more). Paolini's Eragon books follow the format while seeming to be a parody at the same time.

There are exceptions. The Donaldson Covenant trilogy and follow-ons come to mind (preceding GoT by a long time). MZB's Darkover books, while not packaged as trilogies and not exactly fantasy or SF, doesn't fit the JRRT/Del Rey formula at all.

The Ballentine Adult Fantasy books are another reference point that intersects JRRT, but includes older and (then) contemporary single-volume fantasy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballantine_Adult_Fantasy_series

**Posted by xheralt** 10/25/2025 6:00 pm

You are looking at a far too narrow and simplistic interpretation of "formula". Number of books was NOT the OP's thesis, but the Campbellian Hero's journey coupled with elves, dwarves, wizards, dragons, zombies, zombie dragons, and that bestest evar race, the noble hoo-manz; it about the trappings of fantasy, the things that defined fantasy as fantasy.

**Posted by Eupathic Impulse** 10/26/2025 1:29 pm

As someone who has been reading fantasy and SF for a long time, I think that Tolkien's formula-dominance is overrated, but there's something to be said about the Del Rey empire. It's really the (now apparently retconned) massive popularity of David Eddings that created the dominant formula spread by the Del Rey empire, and Eddings himself considered his/their (started acknowledging his wife* later on as coauthor) work to be a counter-reaction to Tolkien.

I would say authors like China Miéville and his "Bas-Lag" series represent real/experimental attempts at bucking that fantasy formula, and even Terry Pratchett. Since we're in a Cherryh forum I'd say that even the Fortress books buck that formula. GRRM is if anything a reactionary return to the Tolkienian formula, with the exception of the sex as well as the forced (IMO cringey) attempt at medieval "realism". The type of stakes and backstory are very similar (Valyria as a kind of nastier Númenor, Daenerys as a sort of mean-girl Aragorn etc).

*the retconning happened when it was found that David and Leigh Eddings had a shady and somewhat cancellable past

Last edited by Eupathic Impulse (10/26/2025 1:30 pm)

**Posted by Kokipy** 12/31/2025 7:57 pm

Interesting thread. It became clear 40ish years ago that a lot of people were basically writing derivative fantasy. they just weren’t very good books. Eddings was bad, just stupid stuff that seemed to be self-parody by the end.
I remember getting a Ballantine book many many years ago when I was still in high school that collected lists of books that could be said to have influenced JRRT. I read as many as I could find. They were all different and amazing. Dunsany, Hope Mirless, James branch Cabell- all wonderful and uniq8. So many books that came later were very bad.

**Posted by Surtac** 1/01/2026 10:30 pm

Kokipy wrote:
So many books that came later were very bad.

I am reminded that somebody must have defined the term 'Extruded Fantasy Product' for a reason.