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11/06/2020 5:56 pm  #41


Re: Foreigner series observations

Joe - My impressison agrees with yours, that Bren's understanding of manchi has evolved as he has more and more experience of Atevi. It is also my impression, although I can't point to specific passages, that Banichi and Jago's manchi to Bren has changed over time. They started with manchi to Tabini, doing a job of protection because he ordered it. The Malguri event made a change in their orientation, in that it was then that their manchi still went to Tabini, but actually became attached to Bren, through Tabini. The difference between an assignment, perhaps unwelcome, to complete agreement with the program. In the Malguri event they began to see that Bren was worth their manchi.  But as time passed their manchi developed further, until their primary orientation was to Bren,, but spilling over to Tabini because Bren was so completely attached to Tabini.
In this regard there is a passage near the end of DIVERGENCE where Bren's aishid enumerates all the things he has done that have changed the world. And they entirely agree with those changes. That without him the world would have had a disaster. The Kyo would have come and destroyed everything. Bren didn't know that was a possibility, but everything he did, all his policies made it possible for Atevi + humans to meet the Kyo successfully. They explain all these things are why the shadow guild regard Bren as their chief enemy.
Now, putting this idea into the story makes me a little quivery about where CJ might take the story in the future. We have Ilisidi thinking about end-of-life issues, and we are told that Bren is the chief target of the shadow guild. EEEEK


Wild about cats, handmade lace, CJ Cherryh.   politics junkie
 

11/10/2020 3:46 pm  #42


Re: Foreigner series observations

Eeeek, indeed.
 

 

11/11/2020 10:31 am  #43


Re: Foreigner series observations

Banichi and Jago wanted the protection job with Bren, They had to beat out 10 other teams to get the job. Jago was attracted to Bren right from the start both sexually and emotionally. I think she was the driving force in the relationship at the beginning. Bren is very attractive from the Manchi standpoint. 

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11/11/2020 6:26 pm  #44


Re: Foreigner series observations

Your reference to 10 teams -- that occurs in FOREIGNER  when they are all on the plane flying back to Shejidan. I think it was Banichi who says that he and Jago convinced 10 guildmembers to go with them, but all would have gone (if the plane could take that many). I took that to be 10 guildmembers among Sidi's "young men". I didn't interpret it as referring to the beginning of their service with Bren.

I think Jago's special interest in Bren first appears at the end of FOREIGNER. After his night in Sidi's basement Jago touches his face. And when they are on the plane, returning, she does the same again. So to my mind that suggests that the "basement events" were significant. Her more overt sexual interest occurs in book 2, while he still has the cast on.

But I admit to having difficulties with interpretations of literary works. It always surprises me when other readers see something completely different in a story from what I see. My academic experience is in history. And in that field there are definitely right and wrong interpretations of old texts. Evidence is evidence and can't be set aside.


Wild about cats, handmade lace, CJ Cherryh.   politics junkie
 

11/11/2020 9:06 pm  #45


Re: Foreigner series observations

"That there is great good will in you, nadi Bren." Jago reached out and wiped his face with her fingers, brushed back his hair. "Banichi and I won over 10 others to go with you. All would have gone. ---Are you all right, nadi Bren?"  Foreigner page 317.

It could be referring to when they were originally assigned to Bren, when Tabini sent Bren to the Dowager or when the Dowager decided to flee Malurgi. 

Banichi and Jago have manchi to Tabini but not to Bren at this point in the book. They also do not have any real association with the dowager. Banichi and Jago were assigned by Tabini to guard Bren. As guild members, I can't see them leaving Bren's side if they had any choice at all in the matter once they reached Malurgi. If the dowager decided she didn't want them to go, she would have prevented it. I can't see where there would be a situation where there would be some sort of a contest between Banichi and Jago (who were not in her manchi)  and ten people who were in her manchi.  The dowager would have just chosen who she wanted. I can see her telling Banichi and Jago to stay behind and they argue to go but not some sort of contest between them and a group of guild in manchi to the dowager.

I can see Tabini wanting to keep such valuable people near him and Banichi and Jago fighting to keep the position. But why would they have to fight 10 other groups to keep guarding the person they have been guarding for months? 

The context was Bren was saying that as much as he studied he still didn't understand her and she said that she did understand him. He asked what she understood. She said that they fought to go with him. 

Its confusing. Within the story, I put it to Bren's still limited understanding of spoken Atevi.

I just don't think she's referring to events that happened in the East. It just doesn't make sense to me that the Dowager would have some sort of contest to decide who goes with her. She would pick and either they went or they didn't go. 

Bren get marriage proposals from Atevi women all the time in the mail. I can see Jago being mildly interested in him even before they were assigned to him. I think that Jago and Banici were close guards to Tabini and saw Bren up close for a while before they were assigned to him. They knew that Tabini had some sort of plans for Bren but didn't know what they were but felt that guarding Bren could be more interesting that guarding Tabini in the capital all the time. 

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11/11/2020 9:18 pm  #46


Re: Foreigner series observations

There's also no way that Jago and Banichi would have not gotten on the plane if they had a choice. They were put there as observers by Tabini and Tabini wouldn't be happy if his people were left behind. It would be a bad political move for the Dowager. 

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11/11/2020 11:05 pm  #47


Re: Foreigner series observations

It did bother me that Banichi and Jago are "winning over" 10 of Sidi's Guild, instead of Sidi just picking who would go. But Bren threw a rock to get the oppo force to stop beating Cenedi and hitting Sidi. At that point in the story Sidi and Cenedi are one group, Banichi and Jago are another group. The rest of Sidi's guildmen are scattered around the area, and we don't know who they are in touch with. They weren't with Sidi. Possibly some of them were in contact with Banichi. Possibly here the problem is the phrase "won over". I read that as meaning convincing through argument or persuasion. It doesn't have to do with a contest.

It still amazes me that her work is so full of realistic characters that we can have this discussion.


Wild about cats, handmade lace, CJ Cherryh.   politics junkie
 

11/12/2020 12:29 am  #48


Re: Foreigner series observations

I think that much of the wording, especially in the first novel, is intentionally ambiguous. Jago is not a human. She thinks differently. To an Atevi there was no ambiguity but to a human there is. If you can completely understand Atevi, they aren't really aliens. The best part of the Atevi is that they and humans are 90% similar. There are many recognizable type personalities in both. But the 10% that's different is the things that start wars. 

Bren by himself could never do what he does. But he's not alone, ever. He's the head of a family who would not hesitate to tell him if he's making a major mistake. I think that's one of the things that makes him attractive. He listens to everyone around him but he makes his own decisions. Neither Jago nor Banichi would have ever told him to go speak to the dowager in Foreigner. It was way too dangerous. But it worked. She realized that there were at least some humans that were worth keeping around. 

I just can't see Jago or Banichi not being on the plane with Bren. Of course, none of the Dowagers people would want to be left behind. But they wouldn't be going with Bren. They'd be going with the Dowager. Jago and Banichi wouldn't have to win over 10 of her people. They only need to win over one, the Dowager. Ten regular guild members don't enter into the decision.  

Why would any of the Dowagers people want to go with Bren? He's not in their manchi. At this point, Bren is considered to be in Tabini's manchi. Atevi would want to be with Bren because of manchi, association or sexual attraction. Those are the main Atevi motivations. Bren isn't associated with the Dowager yet. He just wouldn't be attractive to the Dowagers people in the sense of them being drawn to him. But someone in Tabini's manchi could be drawn to him because they share the same manchi. 

Plus, the plane they are taking is a Lords private plane. Lords always travel in large groups. When Bren went to the island, he took the bare minimum number of people with him, 6. I would doubt that a typical lord would travel with less than two or three times that many. At least sometimes. I can't see a lords plane having less than 21 or 25 seats, plus the pilots. (I wonder, do Atevi planes have 3 pilots?) We know that at least 2 of the Dowagers men were killed, one blown up and the second one shot who was standing next to Bren. Probably another one or two. Some would ride home and some would go on the plane. There would be no reason to even consider leaving Jago and Banichi behind especially because they are Tabini security.  

Bren might have won over some of the dowagers men and they now favor him as much as they can with anyone not in their manchi. But that has nothing to do with whether they would go with him. They would go with him because the Dowager told them to or they believed that it was in the Dowagers best interest. 

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11/16/2020 9:46 pm  #49


Re: Foreigner series observations

Another question, unrelated to the first novel..  Nomari, the candidate for Ajuri, was at Tirnamardi with Tatiseigi in Emergence after the Shadow Guild assassinated Geidaro.  Tatiseigi received a phone call from the aiji, and then handed the phone to Nomari after he was finished speaking with Tabini.  In that call, Nomari says that Tabini told him that he was confirmed as Lord of Ajura.  Yet, subsequently, in Resurgence, Nomari is "under review", not only by Ilisidi, but also by Tabini......that seems like a broken link to me.....I've gone over it several times and don't see where it changed from "confirmed" to "under review".
 


"Those who can give up essential liberties in order to purchase a little extra security deserve neither liberty nor security." - Benjamin Franklin
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus Aurelius
 

11/17/2020 4:14 pm  #50


Re: Foreigner series observations

I noticed that problem too. I chalk it up to another instance where CJ doesn't fuss about perfect continuity (continuity, conformity, whatever the right word is). I suspect she realized she could make more use of the Nomari character if she delayed his approval.

One other thing that bothers me is who is Bren working for. In book 20 Tabini tells Bren that in this instance Bren works for Tabini. But in many places in book 21 Bren says Tabini told him to keep Ilisidi safe, which We never hear Tabini saying. We hear Tatiseigi saying it.  Bren's various speeches in both books -20 and 21- seem to be "state of the union" speeches -- the current larger issues in the aishidi'tat. Setting the context in which this meeting with Bregani takes place, in how Nomari's confirmation fits in.

Last edited by lynxlacelady (11/17/2020 7:49 pm)


Wild about cats, handmade lace, CJ Cherryh.   politics junkie
 

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