Shej

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7/08/2020 9:24 pm  #31


Re: Foreigner series observations

I think you are right about the Guild wanting a high level member to get first hand information about what Bren, Tabini and Ilisidi were planning and engaged in.


Wild about cats, handmade lace, CJ Cherryh.   politics junkie
 

7/09/2020 7:07 am  #32


Re: Foreigner series observations

The Shadow Guild showed clearly how much power the Guild can wield. In the aftermath, a human reaction would be to attempt to reduce the power of the “good” guild. As a theoretically neutral organization, somewhat a combination of law enforcement and judiciary (the Atevi "Judge Dredd"?? LOL), what is the Atevi reaction? Does organizational Man’chi exist at all, or without violating neutrality? I think something else, related but different to Man’chi, is at play. Does the need/instinct/inclination for balance that measures what is kaibu play into the structuring and dynamics of organizations? 

 

7/09/2020 1:57 pm  #33


Re: Foreigner series observations

Is man'chi evolving?

 

7/14/2020 5:38 pm  #34


Re: Foreigner series observations

Aja Jin
Interesting idea, how kabiu affects and moderates the Guild, or any manchi.


Wild about cats, handmade lace, CJ Cherryh.   politics junkie
 

7/24/2020 7:39 pm  #35


Re: Foreigner series observations

Aja Jin wrote:

The Shadow Guild showed clearly how much power the Guild can wield. In the aftermath, a human reaction would be to attempt to reduce the power of the “good” guild. As a theoretically neutral organization, somewhat a combination of law enforcement and judiciary (the Atevi "Judge Dredd"?? LOL), what is the Atevi reaction? Does organizational Man’chi exist at all, or without violating neutrality? I think something else, related but different to Man’chi, is at play. Does the need/instinct/inclination for balance that measures what is kaibu play into the structuring and dynamics of organizations? 

Atevi can certainly have a manchi to the guild itself. When Bren first met Algini and Tano, their manchi was to the guild. They always talk about balance. Sometimes people throw off the balance. That's what filing is for. When someone has thrown the balance off so much that it is endangering society. A well placed assassination makes people Atevi feel safer because the balance has returned. 

Two is unstable. Three is much more stable. Three legs can make a table. But if you only have two you have a seesaw which moves back and forth constantly. Atevi see the world is always in balance. Sometimes one person can shift the balance so far that everyone can just feel it. Assassinating that person allows the balance to go back to normal. The world never stops but when its in balance it just slowly, gently swings back and forth. The guilds job is not to prevent change but to prevent wild swings. Too much change is bad but too little change when change is needed is just as bad.  

     Thread Starter
 

7/24/2020 7:59 pm  #36


Re: Foreigner series observations

Atevi emotions are interesting. I think that there are three emotions that are the equivalent to love and like.

1) Manchi. The follow the leader instinct. Except for Aji's everyone needs to have someone to follow. But manchi also can work sideways to some extent. People who have manchi to the same lord also can have manchi to each other.

2) Association. This is more like friendship. It is emotional but also thought out. People can have close emotional friends or business friendships that are more official than emotional. Atevi can do the same with association. Friendship is a very dangerous word but I do think in very limited cases it could be true to some extent. The case I can see is two minor lords with manchi to the same lord. Maybe the lord of two villages a few miles apart. They see each other all the time and have a close association that is very similar to human friendship. That is what makes friendship so dangerous. Humans think anyone can be friends but among Atevi only a few people in very specific relationships can have a relationship that really could be called a friendship in the human sense.  On the other hand any association between people with different manchi's can never really be called a friendship in any way shape or form even though they could be closely associated. 

3) The third emotion is sexual attraction. Sexual attraction is not logical. People in different manchi's can be sexually attracted to each other, sometimes to their detriment. 
When Bren first met the Dowager, they flirted a lot with each other. I think some of that was real from the dowagers side. She really did find Bren attractive even though she never intended to do anything about it. This attraction made her a little bit more open to listening to him. And when he proved that he wasn't a fool, he was very persistent and would not back down to anyone, she started looking at him as a useful associate to have. 

I always wonder about Jago's mother. Was it just a contract situation when Jago was born or was it a sexual attraction that led to her birth? I can see Banichi losing his professionalism when he was younger and just losing it over a woman he admired. 

     Thread Starter
 

7/27/2020 4:13 pm  #37


Re: Foreigner series observations

Association might fit the relationship between Geigi and Bren: they follow the same lord.


Wild about cats, handmade lace, CJ Cherryh.   politics junkie
 

11/02/2020 2:27 pm  #38


Re: Foreigner series observations

I'd like to see more Foreigner short stories. Maybe CJ and Jane could write some together. I'd be happy with some Jane Foreigner short stories about Toby on the island. Maybe during the time of troubles. Focus on the humans. Maybe have a scene from the viewpoint of an average human meeting the Atevi for the first time. Show them as the strange alien's again. 

Let Jane write it with CJ's input. We've really only had one book on the island. Show what a typical islanders like. 

     Thread Starter
 

11/06/2020 1:55 pm  #39


Re: Foreigner series observations

Dave - I agree with all your suggestions. Hope it happens.


Wild about cats, handmade lace, CJ Cherryh.   politics junkie
 

11/06/2020 5:32 pm  #40


Re: Foreigner series observations

When Jago tells Bren that Algini has man'chi to Tano, and Tano has man'chi to Bren, it's somewhat confusing to Bren, especially since Bren knows that Algini had man'chi to the Guild.  Jago calmly tells him, "We can have more than one man'chi,  Bren-ji." which gave him a clue that man'chi wasn't as cut and dried as he might have thought, and he had to re-evaluate his perception of it.  CJC touches on it at other times when she says that Banichi and Jago have man'chi to Bren, but also have man'chi to Tabini.  Now, I wonder if  that man'chi to Tabini is part of their man'chi to Bren (or maybe it's as she says, flowing from them through Bren to the aiji.)


"Those who can give up essential liberties in order to purchase a little extra security deserve neither liberty nor security." - Benjamin Franklin
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus Aurelius
 

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