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7/18/2023 9:45 pm  #1


C and K in Ragi

Hey, everyone! So one thing I've noticed in the Foreigner series is that some of the words and names use a C (Cajeiri, Cenedi) and some use a K (kabiu, wi'itkiti). I've seen confirmation that Cenedi is with a hard C, so that all seems like it would be the same sound. The thing is, Ragi has its own script, of course, which means these words are all transliterations. The question then, is, why is our implied system of transliteration distinguishing between C and K? They could represent two different letters in the original Ragi script, but it seems implausible that an alphabet from another planet would just so happen to replicate our alphabet's quirk of having two letters for that one sound in particular, you know? Has anyone else thought of this? My theory, or at least personal headcanon, is that these are two different letters in Ragi because they actually represent two different sounds! Specifically, I think that Ragi distinguishes between an unvoiced velar stop (the traditional C or K sound, as in "cat", with the back of your tongue against the back of the roof of your mouth) and the unvoiced palatal stop (with the middle of your tongue against the middle of the roof of your mouth -- English uses a variant of this as the K sound before certain vowels, as in "key", although languages that distinguish the two sounds would usually pronounce it a little further forward). Since the English versions of these sounds are interchangeable, the result with an anglicized pronunciation would probably be functionally the same as treating C and K as the same sound like in English, but the difference that would be apparent to a Ragi-speaking listener justifies the difference in spelling and makes it make sense! I haven't decided whether C or K should be the palatal stop. The IPA uses /k/ for the typical English K sound, the velar stop, and /c/ for the palatal one, but in practice in English I think it tends to be the other way around, just because of how K comes before front vowels.

(I'm aware of how this kind of conflicts with the rule about H after a consonant creating a palatalIZED version, so words like Nokhada imply the existence of palatalized K, /kʲ/, and how real languages apparently don't distinguish between palatals and palatalized velars, but possibly the atevi vocal tract or sense of hearing or whatever might facilitate phonemic distinctions that are too hard for human children, and besides, I tend to read the secondary articulation on the palatalized consonants in Ragi as being slightly later, resulting in something almost like no-KYA-da, and that seems reasonably distinct to me?)

(Disclaimer that I'm not a linguist or anything, just someone who likes to look into this kind of phonetic thing for fun, and I think my explanations of things here are correct-ish enough to get across what I'm trying to say, but I'm sure it's not perfect or anything.)

Anyway, has anyone else thought about this? What have your thoughts been on this mystery?

 

7/19/2023 10:08 am  #2


Re: C and K in Ragi

Yes, plenty of discussions have centered around just that.  One of the major issues is that English speakers are highly influenced by the Latin alphabet.  CJ herself is very acquainted with Latin, English, French and several Celtic languages.  You can see the influences of those languages in how She wrote Ragi in the series.  I welcome your input in the discussion.


http://strengthofthehills.tripod.com/hanilanguageandculturepage/

The date I joined the original board: 12/04/2002
 
 

7/19/2023 10:21 am  #3


Re: C and K in Ragi

Yeah, I think it's reasonable to assume that the Doylist explanation for this could be just that the story is in English and so this is the alphabet the author and readers are all using and that influences the fictional language, but I'm trying to figure out how it might work from a Watsonian perspective, you know? What have your thoughts been on this?

     Thread Starter
 

7/19/2023 1:54 pm  #4


Re: C and K in Ragi

As a Linguist, I would say that CJ has made a tremendously believable language for her characters.  But her spellings are not as native as she would have us believe.  I wrote up a full-blown constructed language from the utterances she wrote in her books. The spellings are more internally consistent than her spellings.


http://strengthofthehills.tripod.com/hanilanguageandculturepage/

The date I joined the original board: 12/04/2002
 
 

7/19/2023 5:10 pm  #5


Re: C and K in Ragi

Yeah, I bought the ebook of your conlang the other day. But it's more interesting to me to look into and try to think through the implications of what we have than to ignore it and decide that Ragi is just really boring, phonologically speaking, you know?

     Thread Starter
 

7/21/2023 7:25 am  #6


Re: C and K in Ragi

I hope my last reply wasn't insulting to you -- I didn't mean that your conlang is boring; there are a lot of things that are really cool about it! I just feel like phonology (and the implied orthography) are areas where there's still lots of room to have interesting discussions and figure things out. I actually have a lot of thoughts and headcanons about this besides the C and K thing, and I feel like I could express them better and in a more organized way than my rambly first post in this thread, so I'd like to try again. However, I haven't used a forum in a long time, so I'm not entirely sure: would it be within the etiquette to make a new post/thread summarizing those thoughts and inviting discussion on phonology in general, or would that be considered spammy since we already have this one? Thanks!

     Thread Starter
 

7/21/2023 1:10 pm  #7


Re: C and K in Ragi

As an independent observer who is not primarily a Foreigner reader, I detected no insult intended at all.

Yes, by all means feel free to start a new thread if that will help you organize your thoughts better. Not a problem!


One world -- or none
 

7/21/2023 5:01 pm  #8


Re: C and K in Ragi

There was no insult. 

From the inside, an orthographic system must be simple and carry the needs of those who speak it.  Look at the Spanish /d/. In front of a vowel, it is pronounced /d/. If it is between vowels it is pronounced /ð/  like the 'th' in the English word 'other'.  However, Spanish speakers consider both one single /d/ sound and are actually puzzled by the thought of two /d/ sounds, until a non-Spanish speaker points out that there are in fact two different sounds. They consider both sounds part of a /d/ and don't confuse them, please. 

Like English speakers think the /l/ in front of a vowel and the /l/ after are one sound. No, there are allophonic differences between the two. We just think of them as the same sound and pronounce it a bit different in the two environments. Having two letters for what to us is the same sound would be too much to keep track of.

It is possible to lump all the allophones into one phoneme. This is what I did with the Ragi that I wrote.  What you are looking for is the separation of all the allophones from each phoneme.  That, is beyond the scope of what I wrote.


http://strengthofthehills.tripod.com/hanilanguageandculturepage/

The date I joined the original board: 12/04/2002
 
 

7/21/2023 5:14 pm  #9


Re: C and K in Ragi

What I wrote was a phonemic script for the Ragi to use.  This is the best form for a native group to use in their own language.  A script that shows every single allophonic variant would be cumbersome for the native. 

However, linguists from the outside, would be very fascinated by the allophonic differences in the uttered Ragi, particularly in its regional or caste differences.


http://strengthofthehills.tripod.com/hanilanguageandculturepage/

The date I joined the original board: 12/04/2002
 
 

7/21/2023 7:31 pm  #10


Re: C and K in Ragi

Interesting conversation. I hope you two keep it up. Inquiring shejidani minds want to hear more. 

 

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