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4/21/2020 8:11 pm  #1


Notes on CJ's various languages

Dec 24, 2006#1Rodlox
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 19
(4/22/05 1:47 pm)
Reply New Post basic Atevi/English webpage it still needs a lot of work, I know...but its a start.




www.geocities.com/rodlox/atevi/words.html

thoughts?

(November 7th update - made the rows orderly & added a few more phrases and words from this thread; now that I''ve finished Destroyer)....




btw, the underscores_are_to highlight separations between words. (I personally sometimes have trouble - though not with atevi words as yet - telling where one begins, and another ends).


Edited by: Rodlox at: 11/7/05 8:34 pm
Leelah
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Posts: 274
(4/28/05 10:53 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Thoughts? Yeah, you are one very focused individual :salad

"Duty before friendship, thought before feeling, justice before compassion"
Killasahndra
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 4
(5/2/05 8:18 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage This makes me have seemingly impossible dreams. Dreams of CJ Cherryh writing a trilogy.

1st Book: The Complete History of Atevi
2nd Book: A Guide to Atevi Custums and Ettiquet
3rd Book: The Atevi Language

Rodlox
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 45
(5/3/05 11:04 am)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage
One thanks you for saying I am focused.

and, as to the books.....personally, as much as I'd like to read those titles you mention, I'd rather read more of the adventures.

BUT, https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593452.8325-smiley.gif
 https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593452.8325-smiley.gif
 ...its a close race between those options, at least for me.


here, have some more https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif


Leelah
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(5/3/05 5:24 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Ahhh!! two baji-naji!! :ow

"Duty before friendship, thought before feeling, justice before compassion"
cicel58
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(5/3/05 9:11 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Let me add a fortunate third.
https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593452.8325-smiley.gif


Leelah
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(5/3/05 11:09 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Too much baji-naji but now the numbers are right. Wheeeew! Thanks https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593490.2436-smiley.gif
ooch

"Duty before friendship, thought before feeling, justice before compassion"
Rodlox
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 46
(5/4/05 11:28 am)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage
thank you for your concerns over the number of https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593452.8325-smiley.gif
 ....unfortunately, it would result in a never-ending array of https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593452.8325-smiley.gif
 .......since each one is 2, even a harmonious third https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593452.8325-smiley.gif
 would be 6.

or am I thinking too much? https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593494.8662-smiley.gif



again, thanks for your help, thanks for all the fish (just saw that movie), and please, help yourself to the https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif


Sabina B
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(5/4/05 11:48 am)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593494.8662-smiley.gif
 Free advice: Don't think too much about the numbers, othewise, they'll eventually drive you crazy.
(It's bad enough that I nowadays avoid apparent even numbers like the plague, no need to skip to the not so apparent, too.)

キャプテン・フューチャー全集
Leelah
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(5/4/05 12:34 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Nadiin-ji, are we turning into numbercounters? :eek

"Duty before friendship, thought before feeling, justice before compassion"
Rodlox
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 49
(5/4/05 7:21 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage
ah, but we're all good 'counters !



ps: Sabina B-nandi, I apologize for inadvertantly making you fear more numbers.

Leelah
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Posts: 286
(5/5/05 12:50 am)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593473.5019-smiley.gif
in

"Duty before friendship, thought before feeling, justice before compassion"
Rodlox
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 54
(5/5/05 5:51 pm)
Reply New Post As to numbers...
while I was reading the first atevi trilogy, I thought that felicitious(sp) numbers were all primes.

now I know that, at least in part (thanks to dasturdly two), that my guess - regarding primes - was in err.

pardon.

https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif
 https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif


Rodlox
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(7/1/05 7:11 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage
It has been posted, nadiin!

langmaker's atevi site!

thought to mention it.






(dang, nearly forgot the spam)

Edited by: Rodlox at: 7/1/05 7:12 pm
Sabina B
Shai-Shan Service Staff
Guild Assassin
Posts: 2442
(7/2/05 7:54 am)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I took a look at the page, there are some things I noticed:
It's arispesa, a word imported from Mosphei', meaning aerospace. (Btw, you should mention which books you used, the page umbers are different for paperback and hardcover.)

Shai-shan: Shan also is a name of a horse in Cherryh's 'The Paladin'. (In said book there also appears and Eidi, the Tabini's major domo shares the same name.)

________

Book 2, p.171: Bren to technicans at Mogari-nai Nadiin-sai, machi arai'si na djima sa dimajin tasu. - Keep playing until further notice. (Probably the Nadiin were not mentioned in the translation)

Book 2, p.176: Bren to Tabini-aiji during the first communication with the spaceship Phoenix
Aiji-ma, jis asdi parei'manima pag' nand' Stani-captain?
(No translation given)

Book 2, p.176: Tabini-aiji in response to Bren
Masji sig' triti didamei'shi.
(No translation)(triti from the Mosphei' treaty, first occurence either in Foreigner or Invader)

Book 2, p.176: Bren to Mogari-nai technicans, concluding communication with Phoenix, asking for transmission of the treaty document
Daiti, nadiin tekikin, madighi tritin distitas pas aijimaisit, das, das, das, magji das.
(The repeated das are probably for felicity reasons, tekikin probably from the Mosphei' techincans, second 'guild' meaning in Inheritor [if I remember correctly])

Book 2, p.176: Technicans in response to Bren's request
Pai sat, paidhi-ma.
(No translation)

Book 2, p.318: Mosphei' Maudette - Atevi' (no given dialect) Esili
(red, desolate planet farther from the sun than 'Earth', probably similiar to Mars, I think it was already mentioned together with another star in Foreigner.)

Book 2, p.291: basheigi
(meaning universe, there was somewhere in the first trilogy a mentioning of a word that meant universe in the sense of space as well as meaning association.)

Book 2, p.292: Pachiikiin
('beige-furred, white-tailed game herd', 'fat and sleek with the summer', plural, at the beginning of a sentence.)

__________
edit:
ghidari'sai uchi'sa-ma
jidari'sai uchi'sa-ma
(uchi'sa-ma probably means staff, uchi in Japanese means 'house', 'family' or 'inside', and sama is an honorific attached to names.)

キャプテン・フューチャー全集
Edited by: Sabina B at: 7/2/05 8:09 am
Rodlox
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(7/2/05 1:12 pm)
Reply New Post Thank you for your help, magnificent salad!
Your help has improved the website a great great deal!

Thank you.



Zen9
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(7/2/05 5:21 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: Thank you for your help, magnificent salad! I'm sure I posted some stuff about this a while back, including various bits of Atevi I typed in from notes.....but if I did I've no idea where in this forum it is nor where it is in which computer I have.

But I'm pretty sure you've missed quite a bit.

Asicho
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 9
(9/20/05 10:00 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Rodlox-nadi, I'm thinking that you might add to your list of phrases and sentences that part near the beginning of Precursor where Bren is talking to Jase in Ragi just before Shai-shan docks with Alpha station. I'll have to grab my book later as I don't know it exactly, but it translates something like, "Are you not one of the paidhiin?" and Jase says (approximately), "Yes, sir, o captain my captain," and Bren goes, "Are you reliable, translator-mediator (paidhi)," and Jase goes, "Yes, I am."

For some reason that bit gives me delicious shivers, so I hope you can include it. https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.345-smiley.gif


(And yes, I'm starting to do everything in threes and fives instead of infelicitous twos and fours, too... "We live between the second and the third bell," as Tabini-aiji said...brilliant speech, that.)

"'God' is 'tears'?"
"Among other elusive concepts, Jago-ji."
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 109
(9/21/05 8:11 am)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote:For some reason that bit gives me delicious shivers


Oooh, yes!

And Tabini's speech even more so! And to think we are only reading it. In translation. Just imaging what it would be like being there, hearing it in the original!

Asicho
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 14
(9/21/05 4:45 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Oooh, yes, can you imagine? Even to a human the bit with twos and threes and being between the hope and the fulfillment of the hope was deep... To be an ateva and understand it in Ragi?

<--- Jago/Bren fanart!! Hee.

Anyway, here's the Bren-Jase passage from my copy of Precursor:

Quote:"Na dei shi'ra ma'anto paidhi, nadi?" Are you not one of the paidhiin, sir? Am I mistaken?

"Na dei-ji?" (repetition, with the familiar, of [the first part of] the above)

"Aiji-ji, so'sarai ta." (no real translation, but "affection, loyalty, a salute" ) You taught me, my master. I respect that.

...

"Shi, paidhi, noka ais-ji?" Are you reliable, translator-mediator?

"Shi!" I am.



Oh, and the other thing I thought of--does anybody have that first sentence Jase said to Tabini in Ragi over the uplink, greeting him from the station? Bren was all impressed with how Jase had put a decent greeting together from just the notes he'd sent up. I don't have "Invader" with me so I can't add the Ragi in here, though.

"'God' is 'tears'?"
"Among other elusive concepts, Jago-ji."
Edited by: Asicho at: 9/21/05 4:49 pm
Zen9
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(9/21/05 4:56 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Notes from Destroyer

Aishi - association
Aishidi - Associates (plural)
Aishidi'tat - western Association

Mani-ma - ? used by Cajeiri to his grandmother Ilisidi.

Presidenta - President.

Kur -debt
Kurdi - gratitude/(indebtidness?)

Noburanjiru - grandmother of the snows (name of Mount Adam Thomas)

Amathai'in (I may have misspelt this but finding it in the book is not easy) - childerens language (version of Ragi)

Edited by: Zen9 at: 9/21/05 5:03 pm


http://strengthofthehills.tripod.com/hanilanguageandculturepage/   

The date I joined the original board: 12/04/2002
 
 

4/21/2020 8:13 pm  #2


Re: Notes on CJ's various languages

edited for sNepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 116
(9/21/05 5:23 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote:Mount Adam Thomas


which in earlier books was Mount Allen Thomas!

I do have that quote from Jase, on my other computer

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 117
(9/21/05 7:01 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage [Jase] "I've been practicing. How's Dai ghiyi-ma, aigi'ta amath-aiji, an Jase Graham?"
"Hamatha-aijijin, but that's real good."
Invader, pp. 363 paperback


I hope the "y" is Jase slightly mispronouncing the word, because I haven't seen "y" as a letter in Ragi before.

Edited to fix weird quotation marks

Edited by: Nepenti at: 9/22/05 6:54 pm
Zen9
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(9/22/05 4:47 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage 'y' would seem necessary to a word like "ghiyi-ma", Presumably said 'ghi-yi-ma'. Notice the ending '-ma'.

Can we deconstruct this sentence?

Dai ghiyi-ma, aigi’ta amath-aiji, an Jase Graham

'amath-aiji' does that relate to the childerens language? Maybe 'Amath' is 'speach' and "Amathai'in", being perhaps a diminutive?

Is'nt '-ma' an ending implying a certain formality?

The responce is 'Hamatha-aijijin' Which seems to relate to its use in the greating 'Hamatha ta resa Tatiseigi dathasa'. Could it mean 'welcome' or maybe 'good'?

Hmm 'aijijin' is this a formal or informal use? could 'jin' be the long version of '-ji'?

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 120
(9/22/05 8:25 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Zen, your research is farther along than mine is!

I had been assuming Bren's response was a correction (correcting "amath-aiji" to "Hamatha-aijijin"), rather than an answer. How would we know?

In either case, it makes sense that hamatha, amath (if it is a correct word), and Amathai'in are related.

Also Hamatha showing up in the greeting to lord Tatiseigi. That sure does look like "welcome", or something closely related.

But "aiji-ji" doesn't make sense socially. Who could ever be in a position to say that?

I was thinking aijijin was some grammatical form of aiji. We have been told how to decline "aiji" in four cases, singular and non-specific plural. But there are probably more than four cases. (We haven't seen indirect object, we haven't seen 'moving toward'. I don't even remember all the possibilities. But a highly declined language can have a lot.) It is speculation, but "addressed toward the aiji" makes sense. -- "Hamatha-aijijin" as "Greetings to the aiji."

"Ghiyi-ma" could be representing Jase attempting to pronounce a word that would be officially spelled "ghii-ma". It just bothers me that the only time we have seen the letter "y" in a Ragi word is in one of Jase's very early attempts at the language. (Not that I think I could do a better job of pronouncing "ghii-ma". G-H as two separate consonants at the beginning of a word would be a mouthful.)

It's a good start, Zen!

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 123
(9/23/05 10:18 am)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage So I looked up the noun cases for Finnish, just to prove that things can always get worse ... (Finnish is what you call a highly inflected language, and they can get half a sentence into one very long word.) We can just hope Ragi isn't quite this bad! https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593455.3111-smiley.gif


These are all endings added onto nouns, and most have at least one complete set of pronouns (I, me, my, mine ...) :

Nominative: subject (actor) of the sentence, the usual dictionary entry

Accusative: "direct object"; the whole of the object is affected by the verb

Genitive: possessive

Parative: "from" a place, "some from" a group, "of the quantity or quality"

Elative: "out of" a place, "in exchange for", "from among"

Addessive: "on", "in"

Inessive: "within"

Illative: "into", ending or left "at", time "at" or "during"

Ablative: "from"

Allative: "to", "onto", "for" (indirect object)
(As in, Give the teacher the book.)

Essive: "at", site of an action

Translative: change of state, "into" a state

Comitative: "with", "belonging to", "part of"

Instructive: "by", "with", manner of action, means

Abessive: "without"

Prolative: "along", direction of travel

In English, many of these situations are handled by prepositions, not changes to the noun. We already know Ragi is more inflected than English. (Most languages are more inflected than English.) At this point, we don't know just how extreme Ragi is.https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593455.3111-smiley.gif


Asicho
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 15
(9/23/05 3:50 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Re: Finnish--and I thought Russian was bad!

I, also, always assumed "hamatha-aijijin" was Bren correcting Jase's mistake; also that aijijin was a form of aiji.

Quote:But "aiji-ji" doesn't make sense socially. Who could ever be in a position to say that?



Well, Jase does say "aiji-ji" to Bren later (in the quote from Precursor--"Aiji-ji, so'sarai ta") but that's certainly a very different social situation. Bren always calls Tabini (and Ilisidi) "aiji-ma," even in informal situations. "Aiji-ji" would seem to be something you'd only say if you were extremely close to said aiji, and definitely isn't something a sane human translator would say at first meeting an atevi lord. It seems more like "beloved Jedi master" than "your lordship".

So sounds like the last part of that sentence then is "Greetings to the aiji from Jase Graham," which makes total sense in context. Do we have enough information to speculate what "ghiyi-ma" ("ghii-ma"?) might mean?

"'God' is 'tears'?"
"Among other elusive concepts, Jago-ji."
Zen9
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(9/23/05 5:07 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I'm sure "Hamatha" and "Amatha" are different words.

Hamatha in use in the sentence 'Hamatha ta resa Tatiseigi dathasa' does not have to mean 'welcome', because we don't know the exact nature of the word order (or I've forgotten if its mentioned). So it could be translated say (and this is just guesswork mind) "good your arrival Tatiseigi greatings".


Hmmmm mind on a little roll here....
Note something here!
"Shi, paidhi, noka ais-ji?" Are you reliable, translator-mediator?
"Shi!" I am.
So we know "Shi" means 'I am' but what is its exact meaning in the first sentence? Could be instead a form of "yes" or "are" the latter making it rather important. But the problem is that they may be different words but look the same under certain conditions!

And do we see it again as "shi'ra"? in "Na dei shi'ra ma'anto paidhi, nadi?" Are you not one of the paidhiin, sir? Am I mistaken?


See we have a ending here for "nadiin" in "Nadiin-sai" in the sentence "Nadiin-sai, machi arai'si na djima sa dimajin tasu." - Keep playing until further notice. (Probably the Nadiin were not mentioned in the translation).

"ghidari'sai uchi'sa-ma " the staff are all rain clouds
"jidari'sai uchi'sa-ma " the staff may be offended?

So we can see "ghidari'sai" is 'rainclouds' and "jidari'sai" is 'offended'. The 'sai part being perhaps an case ending?
We can also deduce that "uchi'sa-ma" contains the word 'staff', with a clear ending "-ma" not necessarily anthing to do with the ending "-ma" in "aiji-ma".

'Get' irregular indivisbles
shikira
makkiura
shis'urna

Bren says "any three quarters of any verb in the -irei class: they rhyme with the -ra plurals, at least in the past tenses"

note the stress in the correction "asso shi madihiin-sa" in how to ask for two bowles. Is this the same "shi" we see elsewhere?

Edited by: Zen9 at: 9/23/05 5:37 pm
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 130
(9/23/05 8:05 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Asicho -- I had forgotten about that quote from Jase about aiji-ji! "Beloved Jedi master", that sounds about right.

I agree that we don't have the exact meaning of Hamatha pinned down yet. It appears prominently in two greetings, but we don't know exactly.

Shi seems to be used in a variety of ways.

We have Bren scolding Deana: “Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”

The way he emphasises "shi" suggests that makes the difference between "urgent meeting" which she meant, and "pregnant calendar" which she said. Nothing to do with "I am" in this sentence, even though shi clearly is "I am" in the other example.

Then there is the entirely different form of "I am" -- nai'am, found in the Glossary of books 1 & 2.

“Man'china aijiia nai'am,” -- I'm the aiji's associate, foremost.

The same Glossary tells us aijiia means "aiji's"
Man'chi-(something) the-aiji's I-am
(another example of word order)

Which leaves man'china to be something like "in the man'chi", "belonging to the man'chi"

Spanish has two verbs that translate in English as "be", in different senses. So it is not necessarily a problem if Ragi has two words for "I am".

There is another example of the nadiin-sai construction:
{Bren at news confererence, addressing children of the populace} “... I may not be able to answer each and every letter you send me, but I do thank you for writing and asking, nadiin-sai, thank you very much for your good questions.” Invader 266

Just more assorted data at this point, I'm afraid.

[At this point I realize I have the urge to make the plural of "data" as "dati"! Yes, even knowing "data" is already plural.]

Zen9
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(9/24/05 10:07 am)
Reply New Post Ragi Ahh Napenti-ji I had forgotten those references, alas I don't have those two books.

We have Bren scolding Deana: “Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”
Hmmm thats not a literal translation, since there are only two words "naighai" and "maighi-shi", where "-shi" is an ending not a seperate word.
might this not be translated as "volcabulary(abrupt form?) meeting(implied urgency), Deana dear"

........

“Man'china aijiia nai'am,” -- I'm the aiji's associate, foremost.

If "nai'am" is 'I am' and "aijiia" is "aiji's" then the ending on "man'chi" or "na" would suggest the 'foremost' part assuming its not part of the word "nai'am".
Interesting to see the wordorder "associate(foremost?) aiji's I am".

The number of words for 'be' may well be more than two just as there seems to be three forms for 'get'. However English has quite a few used either alone or in conjuction with other words, 'get', 'have' (do have, have it), 'take', and if we look into Old English we also have 'nimman' congate with German 'nehman'. So without further imformation we can only guess at how many forms of these basic construction words are available in Ragi.

Rodlox
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(9/25/05 6:13 pm)
Reply New Post Re: "shi"
>"Shi, paidhi, noka ais-ji?" Are you reliable, translator-mediator?
>"Shi!" I am.
>So we know "Shi" means 'I am' but what is its exact meaning in the first sentence?

and-or, perhaps shi is simply First Person, Confirming (or Declarative).

...yeah, the exclamation mark pointed the way to that. (bad pun, I'm sorry)


>“Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”

...in which case, the shi might make it "(do) definately prepare!...".

just a guess.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 134
(9/25/05 7:14 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: "shi"

Quoteerhaps shi is simply First Person, Confirming (or Declarative).

In that case, what function is shi serving in the question?

I fear that, as Zen said, the "translations" we have been given are not always word-for-word translations. This does not make our job as linguists easier.

Quote:“Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”


I had assumed that in this sentence, "urgent meeting" was the translation of “Naighai maighi-shi". And then Bren continues scolding Deana. I was assuming that Bren was going on about the urgent meeting/pregnant calendar debacle, to remind Deana that she wasn't as fluent as she liked to believe. And that shi, which Bren emphasised, was the point Deana had gotten wrong.

This is where it is interesting, having several linguists, and we each come up with different ideas!

Zen9
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(9/26/05 3:48 am)
Reply
New Post Re: "shi" Hmmmm
Question
"Shi paidhi noka ais-ji?"

'be'(unknown form) translater-mediator reliable ?(interagotive)-dear?

Answer
"Shi"

'be'

hmmm youi might be right on “Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”
Making
“Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji" - meeting urgent Deana-dear
Or perhaps the ending '-shi' is a negative making it
- "meeting calender-not Deana-dear." Which would explain the stress on the ending!

I'm pretty sure "-shi", is not "Shi".

This is rather fun!


Rodlox
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(9/26/05 8:57 am)
Reply New Post Re: "shi"
>>perhaps shi is simply First Person, Confirming (or Declarative).

>In that case, what function is shi serving in the question?

the same as "I am" with an exclamation mark does in English: its First Person, so its "I am" rather than "You are" or "We are"....and its said with confidence/force/other, hence the exclamation.

as I said, just a thought.

please, have some more https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif


Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 138
(9/26/05 7:42 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: "shi"

Quote:"Shi, paidhi, noka ais-ji?" Are you reliable, translator-mediator?
"Shi!" I am.


Nadi Rodlox, how can shi be first-person in both those sentences?

Zen's analysis at least accounts for all the words. Of course we still have to see if it fits with any other of the Ragi quotes.

Quote:This is rather fun!


Oh, yes, quite. Much more fun with several people.

I found a couple more minor quotes that aren't on Rodlox's webpage yet.

"Sha nauru shina" I'll contact you. {Precursor p. 133 paperback}

"Hold on. Jai! Atira'na. Don't let go." Precursor p. 137 paperback}

Zen9
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New Post Re: "shi" "Sha nauru shina" I'll contact you. {Precursor p. 133 paperback}

Interesting one that....could 'Sha' be a declination of 'Shi'?
If so it might suggest 'shina' is also. Though as far as I'm going on 'Shi' being a form of 'be' they might not.....hmmmmm......could it be "be(uknown form) contact you"

"Hold on. Jai! Atira'na. Don't let go." Precursor p. 137 paperback}

Much more difficult. "Jai!" is clearly the imperative, perhaps it is a call to attention?


Quote:Oh, yes, quite. Much more fun with several people.


Indeed!

Chomiji Kaharingai
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New Post Re: the page Rodlox-ji,

Your persistence and scholarship are admirable.

As a humble cobbler of web pages, one would like to suggest that if you insert the code for a non-breaking space,

 

into your empty table cells, they will have a more artistic appearance.

- Cho


Life is a journey ... Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

the mule
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New Post Re: the page Is it just possible that Shi is not a predicate (I am) but rather a confirmation of correctness?

thus the exchange might be

It's true that you are a reliable Paidhi?
It's true!

this would also create

Urgent meeting (it's true (ie correct) ) Miss Deanna!
for the scolding

This just seems to fit better.

Zen9
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New Post Re: the page Hold on....

"It's" is a contraction of "It is", is'nt that a form of 'be'?

In English you get (I may forget some here).
'Be'
'Is'
'Was'
'Are'
'Am'
and in Old English, 'sind' as well.

“Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji.
Its clear to me that "-shi" is an ending, like '-eth', '-est', '-ed' where in English and still '-s', '-ing' and '-y' is.


"Daiti, nadiin tekikin, madighi tritin distitas pas aijimaisit, das, das, das, magji das. "

Hmmm we can swap the words we know.........
Daiti, sir's technician(s?), madighi treaty distitas pas aijimaisit, das, das, das, magji das.

Leaving us with "Daiti", "madigi", "distitas", "pas", "das", "magji" and a form of "aiji" in "aijimaisit"

Edited by: Zen9 at: 9/28/05 5:24 pm
Sabina B
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New Post Re: the page The "das" is probably put in due to felcitious number reasons, at least Bren stated something about numerical difficulties when he gave that sentence.

I like the "-shi" -true interpretation.
it might be an ending, but that doesn't mean it has to be an ending like we are wont to have. Take Japanese for example, you get to use endings that state different levels of politeness among other things.

You should look it up, I think I vaguely remember that Deana's pregnant calenders had been given somewhere (though I might confuse that with Jase's clouds, there we have a direct comparison after all.)

And for the webpage: Precursor (HC, 245): Kate Shugart said "noble thieves" instead of "assassins guild" (Bren remarks to himself that the word for assassin and thief are similar, and the antique word noble and guild even closer. - Curious notion, btw.)
(In Precursor there were also the "vegtable" and "fish" mistakes by the translators (all with remarks form Bren) and the slightly dodgy help request from Jase.)

キャプテン・フューチャー全集
Edited by: Sabina B at: 9/28/05 6:50 pm
Chia
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(9/28/05 8:30 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I'm a terrible linguist. However, from the context I assumed "daiti" meant data. A borrowed word, if you would. I assumed the sentance was something like - Data, technicians, send the treaty.....

in that case das das das may be some part of a file name.
spelling oooops.

Edited by: Chia at: 9/28/05 8:31 pm


http://strengthofthehills.tripod.com/hanilanguageandculturepage/   

The date I joined the original board: 12/04/2002
 
     Thread Starter
 

4/21/2020 8:17 pm  #3


Re: Notes on CJ's various languages

3:39 PM - Dec 24, 2006#3Zen9
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Hmmmm nice idea about 'das' Chia, considering how its used it could be a number.

"das das das magji das" could be something like '00050' perhaps?

Japanese....."-shi" could be a politeness.....

Nepenti
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(9/29/05 8:18 am)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Sabina -- this is what we have found for the pregnant calendar/urgent meeting reference. This is Bren scolding Deana that she isn't as good a translator as she thinks she is.

Quote:“Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”

It is not at all clear how the two (or three) words of Ragi relate to the rest of Bren's comment, and we have been debating what these words might mean. No consensus yet.

Chia -- I had also been assuming daiti was "data", borrowed from Mosphei'. I hadn't considered das das das magji das as a file name, but it makes perfect sense.

As for tekikin, I had been regarding that as a slightly irregular plural, "techs". On the grounds that nouns ending in a consonant are rare. Teki is about what one would expect Ragi to make of the Mosphei' word "tech" (ie. technician). (Ragi seems to frequently add -i to words from Mosphei' that end in consonants, to make them more pronouncable: robot -> boti, Jase -> Jasi. Sometimes -a: president -> presidenta)

As a plural, it seems to have become tekikin rather than the strictly regular "tekiin".

Zen9
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Perhaps Bren is talking to a single technician?
Thus the "-kin" ending would have some other meaning?

Then again this is a borrowed word from Human Mosphei', so the '-kin' maybe a way of felicitously dealing with a foreign word. Where it ought to be "tekiin" instead the speakers accentuate the plural by repeating a consonent "tekikin", perhaps because there is already some other native word that sounds like the plural?


"Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji" take a look at the words "naighai" and "maighi" (sans the ending "-shi"), is'nt is possible that Deana has confused "maighi" with "naighai" and that Bren is correcting here?
Perhaps she said "maighai" which might be taken as some form of "maighi"?

Nepenti
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Tekikin -- In the Glossary for Invader, this is translated "techs". Plural. So the only remaining question there is what the singular word would be. Tekikin isn't a regular plural of anything. Regular plurals end in -i or -iin. So it must be an irregular plural. Of something.

Quote:isn't is possible that Deana has confused "maighi" with "naighai" and that Bren is correcting here?


Quite possible.

Asicho
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New Post Re: tekikin, shi

Quote:Tekikin -- In the Glossary for Invader, this is translated "techs". Plural. So the only remaining question there is what the singular word would be. Tekikin isn't a regular plural of anything. Regular plurals end in -i or -iin. So it must be an irregular plural. Of something.



Unless Bren is using adult Ragi, where the plurals change form depending how many people you're talking to? The -i and -iin plurals are the non-specific ones, after all. :b But no, weren't the paidhiin were encouraged to use the non-specific plurals? So you're probably right. And one might assume that foreign words would get some leeway when it came to the finer nuances of number and plurals.

The singular: Possibly "tekikin" is a misspelling of "tekikiin" which would give "tekiki" for the singular. But I think that's a bit of a reach--we can't keep explaining everything away by saying it's misspelled! :hmm Still "tekiki" could be the singular of "tekikin", if it's an irregular plural?

Chia-ji, I wondered what Bren was repeating so much with "das, das, das, magji das"! Puzzled me. Numbers makes great sense!

I like Mule-ji's idea of "shi" as meaning "true/yes/it's so". That's kind of how I read it. "Shi" itself wouldn't have to include the concept of person--first or second person could be signified by features of other words in the sentence. (Noun case endings, verb agreement.)

Whether "-shi" is related to "shi"--two more bits of random data:

From the quotes on page 1 of this thread, Bren asks a question of Tabini immediately before his statement to the tekikin, and gets the following reply:

Masji sig' triti didamei'shi.

There's "triti" (treaty)--and "'shi" with an apostrophe--yet a third variant.

Also from the webpage:

Asso shi madihiin-sa "possibly having to do with asking for one, rather than two bowls of the next course" (p. 90 of Inheritor)

*Fascinating* thread, nadiin!

"'God' is 'tears'?"
"Among other elusive concepts, Jago-ji."
Zen9
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Quote:Masji sig' triti didamei'shi.



But can we say 'shi in didamei'shi is actualy a ending at all? Maybe its just part of the word and we're 'looking for faces in the clouds', were we see variants of "shi" whenever the three letters are arranged so.

Nepenti
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New Post Re: tekikin, shi

Quote:Still "tekiki" could be the singular of "tekikin", if it's an irregular plural?


Quite true. If tekikin is an irregular (non-specific) plural, the singular is likely either tekiki or teki. And the word is very likely taken from Mosphei' "tech".

Zen9
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New Post Re: tekikin, shi Asicho-ji

Do remember the use of italics when and where they are used in the book as it helps to clarify some parts of this stuff.

"Asso shi madihiin-sa" Is how Bren corrects Jase in how to ask for two bowles.
Note: I think we can see a plural here, "madihiin-sa" contains "madihi" and the "in" plural with a further ending "-sa". My take is that is the word for "bowles" and perticularly two bowles. A plural and then a qualifier making it literaly translate as "bowles-two".
We can see "shi" there though what its exact meaning is harder to say. How that can be "true" is difficult to comprehend for me, that it might be a form of 'be' is still hard but not impossible.

"Asso" may be the request by this analysis.

The stress would seem to be the "shi" suggesting that, that is the principal correction.

cicel58
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Reply New Post Re: tekikin, shi Does Ragi have homophones, as English does? Weigh--way, site--cite--sight, etc.? I'm assuming that the italicized Ragi is transliterated phonetically, in which case, two words that sound the same, even if spelled differently in the Ragi script, would look the same in the script it's being transliterated to.

Did that seem to make sense, or should I try again?

Asicho
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New Post Re: tekikin, shi

Quote:"Naighai maighi-shi, Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance."

"Asso shi madihiin-sa"



Hmm, yes, "shi" does seem to be used in corrections, doesn't it? It's possible that it could be related to (but not the same as) when it's used to mean "yes that's true/right" or "is that true/right?" You know, meaning #2 in the dictionary or something. Or like "-er" in English, which means something different in "farmer" or in "taller".

Ragi does have homophones, doesn't it? They're always talking about how Jase is still mixing them up--something about melons? Good point about Ragi script, Cicel-ji--no reason it has to look the same in Ragi just 'cause it does in English. Could be distinctions between sounds in Ragi that English doesn't have, too, or vice versa.

"'God' is 'tears'?"
"Among other elusive concepts, Jago-ji."
Nepenti
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Do we in fact have enough evidence that the Ragi we have before us is a coherent language?

Quote:Maybe ... we're 'looking for faces in the clouds', were we see variants of "shi" whenever the three letters are arranged so.

Quote:But I think that's a bit of a reach--we can't keep explaining everything away by saying it's misspelled!


I find a disturbing lack of pattern in the Ragi samples. Maybe this entire translation exercise has been looking for faces in the clouds?

I risk heresy, but sitting here among scholars in Rodlox' office, I will say it. Is it possible nand'Cherryh has only been stringing together plausible sounding random words when she needs a Ragi quote? And hoping any confusion could be covered by invoking "complicated grammar?"

No question nand'Cherryh has the background to create a proper language -- but just because she could doesn't mean she did. She is also a busy author with a lot of universes running at once.

I would be most delighted if someone could prove this theory wrong.

Rodlox
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Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage >I risk heresy,

well gee, now that you've said it, I can't accuse you of it.

https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593494.8662-smiley.gif



(that was a joke, nandi)

> but sitting here among scholars in Rodlox' office, I will say it.

if you turn out to be right...*hands you the Mentioning the Elephant in the Room Award*

(since, if you're right, you were the only one who mentioned it)

>And hoping any confusion could be covered by invoking "complicated grammar?"

well, to be fair, the need for numerically-suitable words, might also play a part in it...after all, shi might be confused with -shi in those times when (inventing an example) sha has to be harmonious with something earlier (or later) in the sentance.

Nepenti
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Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I can't prove there is an elephant here. I would much perfer there wasn't. (I do hope we all have tenure here at the University.) But it was starting to feel inexplicably crowded in here.

Quote: well, to be fair, the need for numerically-suitable words, might also play a part in it.

Yes. We are still at the stage where the number of grammar rules probably is greater than the number of Ragi sentences we have available. It would be very helpful to have several pages of Ragi text, with translation. A Rosetta stone from before the War ...

As for heresy -- I've been hanging out with New Hampshire Episcopalians ;) , so heresy is getting commonplace!
And don't forget, we are sitting in your office, nand'Rodlox, so how are you going to convince the mobs that you are innocent?

Rodlox
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>And don't forget, we are sitting in your office, nand'Rodlox, so how are you going to convince the mobs that you are innocent?

I'm of Jewish descent - I know how to disappear fast!

https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593494.8662-smiley.gif


Nepenti
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Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage No matter what we decide about the grammar, at least nand' Rodlox's webpage of known words will survive intact.

Chia
Atevi Citizen
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(10/11/05 7:34 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage The university is certianly lacking a collection of atevi text. Perhaps we need a field expedition.

We also have not factored in the need for calculus to determine proper numerical felicity in a sentance. What types of calculus? in what instances?

Nepenti
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(10/11/05 8:13 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote:calculus to determine proper numerical felicity in a sentance. What types of calculus? in what instances?


Questions the field expedition should try to clarify. That is information that would help a lot.

Did you have a plan for this field expedition?

Rodlox
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Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage
>No matter what we decide about the grammar, at least nand' Rodlox's webpage of known words will survive intact.

One hopes it is not the only such page.


>The university is certianly lacking a collection of atevi text. Perhaps we need a field expedition.

Indeed. Perhaps we could beg a short story from CJ Cherryh.

One strongly thinks we should pool our money to finance such a goal, nadiin-ji.

Felicitous Sk8er
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ezSupporter

New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Chia-ji --
Nand' Cherryh is fond of remarking she is a true expert at "Tau Cetian math".

In other words, she's terrible at math -- just awful -- that's why Jane has to manage the books! https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593473.5019-smiley.gif
in I wonder what Freud would say about her invention of Ragi....

Rodlox-ji --
The inspiration for Carolyn's short stories most often strikes in department stores... especially in the shoe department. https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593473.5019-smiley.gif
in As in, "I see a pair of shoes I want...and I feel a short story coming on!!" (This is an actual quote.) Men may not understand this...but women will!

In fact, people ask so frequently "where do you get your ideas?" that she is threatening to incorporate the above "inspiration" as her standard reply. Carolyn's standard reply has long been, "Have you ever played make-believe?" but we agree "in Macy's, in the shoe department" is far more amusing.... & quite possibly more accurate!



Nepenti
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(10/12/05 8:39 am)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage One worried when nand' Cherryh asked for a translation of her birthday card. One hoped she only wasn't used to the script, but it wasn't a good sign. I fear we are not dealing with Marc Orkrand here.

Quote: One strongly thinks we should pool our money to finance such a goal, nadiin-ji.


If we knew how to accomplish such a goal ... A plan. We need a plan.

On the other hand, one wonders what would happen if the Ragi language simply continued to 'evolve' out of control, in the hands of the people motivated by such things, many of whom are sitting right here ...
=1.154remQuote=1.154remEdit=1.154remShare    



Dec 24, 2006#4Rodlox
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>On the other hand, one wonders what would happen if the Ragi language simply continued to 'evolve' out of control, in the hands of the people motivated by such things, many of whom are sitting right here ...

...with judicious nudges from CJ Cherryh, naturally.

Nepenti
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Naturally.

We wouldn't want everything to become obsolete when the next book does come out.

Chia
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(10/12/05 8:00 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Alas, I do not have a spaceship. And since Pheonix and crew have been unable to locate "sign post" stars, getting there does seem a bit difficult.

Anyone else have ideas for the expedition. A RF telescope to pick up machimi plays? Scripts for machimi?

That may be an idea for a ateva short. A machimi. Hmm.....

Rodlox
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Reply New Post Re: machimi plays
would that be categorized as a part of fanfic?

Chia
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Reply New Post Re: machimi plays I'm sorry Rodlox-ji.

I was not clear. Most of my post was meant in fun. If anyone was to write a machimi, I would expect it to be nand :cherryh She has written short stories before, admittedly not as offshoots of her larger novels. I would, however, like to speculate what type of atevi language samples we would need to move the university's work forward.

Zen9
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Reply New Post Word list Here we go knew I had it somewhere.

The very nearly complete word list, no personal names, no province or township names.

Atevi word horde

Abi = type of tea
Agoi’ingai = felicitous numerical harmony
Aiji = lord of an association
Aishi = association
Aishi’di = associate
Aishi’ditat = Western Association
Amath = ?
Amathai’in = childerens langauage
Arispesa = aerospace
Asdi = ?
Asso = ?
Ateva = (plural atevi)
Basheigi = universe
Baji = fortune
Bihawa = impulse to test newcomers
Biichi-gi = finesse in removing obstacls
Botiin = robot
Chei’no Ojindaro = specific machimi’s title also called “Pogari’s Recall”
Dahemidei = a beliver in the midei heresy
Dai = ?
Daiti = ?
Daja = laday
Dajdi = an alkaloid stimulant
Das = ?
Dijama =?
Dimagi = an intoxicant
Dimajin = ?
Distitas = ?
Djossi = a type of scented flower
Esili = red, desolate planet farther from the sun than 'Earth'
Hamatha = ?
Haronniin = systems under stress, needing adjustment
Hasdrawad = lower house f atevi legislature
Hata-mi = “it’s all right”
Hari'i = "By no means"
Hato = good (refers to food & drink)
Hei = “of course”
Insheibi = indiscreet, provoking attention
Jai! = ?
Jis =?
Kabiu =
Kaginjai =?
Kur = debt
Kurdi = gratitude, indebtedness
Machi = ?
Machimi = popular plays which always feature man'chi themes
Madighi =?
Magji = ?
Makkiura = get?
Masji =?
Mosphei’ = human language
Man’chi = primary loyalty to association or leader
Mecheita = riding animal
Midarga = an alkaloid stimulant, noxious to humans
Midedeni = a supporter of the midei heresy
Midei = a heresy regarding association
Na’itada = refusing to the shaken
Nadi = “sir” or “madam”
Naighai = ?
Nai’am = “I am”
Nai’danei = “you two are”
Nai-ji = “respected person”
Naji = chance
Nandi = “lord” or “lady”
Naojai-tu = specific machimi’s title
Nauru = ?
Noka = ?
O’oi-ana = nocturnal quasi-lizard
Pachiikiin = game animal
Paidhi = translator-mediator
Paiinai = fruit juice and toast
Pas = ?
Presidenti = president
Ragi = culture to which Tabini belongs, eats game only
Resa = ?
Sa = ?
Sha = ?
Sagaiji = refers to an aiji who can not attract followers
Shai-shan = "Favorable Wind"
Shasatu = ?
Shi = ? “I am”
Shibei = dark bitter alcholic drink, safe for humans
shikira = get
shina = ?
shis'urna = get
Somai = together
Ta = ?
Tadiiri = sister
Tashrid = upper house of atevi legislature
Tasu = ?
Tekikin = technician, techs
Triti = treaty?
Wi’itkiti = dragonette

Rodlox
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Reply New Post Re: Word list
most impressive, Zen9-ji. hats off to you.

bravo!

(a grand effort, without question)

Rodlox
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Reply New Post Re: machimi plays
apologies for my confusion, Chia-ji.

yes, I too would love to see a short story with the atevi in it (therein?).

how much do you think we Shejidanites would need to pay her, for a promise to write a short story?

heck, even a drabble'd be fine, imho.

Zen9
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New Post Re: machimi plays Somai shi Aishi'diin, Nadi. (together 'are' associates, sir)

Felicitous Sk8er
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ezSupporter

New Post Re: machimi plays

Quote:how much do you think we Shejidanites would need to pay her, for a promise to write a short story?


A gift certificate to the shoe department at Macy's should do quite nicely! https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593473.5019-smiley.gif
in

Rodlox
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Reply New Post Re: gift certificate
for how much, nadiin?

some shoes are expensive, others more so, others not so much.

Nepenti
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(10/21/05 5:06 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: gift certificate Y'know, if we ever decide we really need bribery, we want to avoid the situation where nand' Cherryh's publisher can outbid us. The publisher has cash -- well, what do we have that they don't? For one thing, original art. Put together Asicho's drawing, my calligraphy, Zen & Rodlox can figure out what the words should say -- we could make a pretty spectacular piece.

But don't distract her now, while she's trying to write Foreigner IX!

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Zen9
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New Post Re: gift certificate Forgot to add.....Paigida sura = mutual leverage.

hrhspence
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Reply | Edit
New Post Re: gift certificate This has been a very interesting discussion. I am very sorry I was distracted and missed out on it. I love to create languages and had an interesting series of email messages with nand'cherryh on the language of the Hani and the Kiff. This was last millenium, 1997 or so. I ended up creating both languages based on her work and then submitting them to her. She seemed to like them. I tried to take on the Ragi language, but became distracted about the time I stopped posting at this board. I am very sad to have missed on much of the discussions herein.

I need to find a new site to post my Hani and Kiffish language pages, the ones mentioned in nand'cherryh's newsletter. I lost my free hosting. I could post some of them here if you want.

Felicitous Sk8er
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New Post Re: gift certificate Nand'hrhspence:
Welcome back! Would you care for some little iced mint cakes? The others will be along shortly with the https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif

Yes, please do post your work!

Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 540
(11/4/05 2:01 am)
Reply New Post Re: hrhspence-ji!
hola, comrade!

As a matter of fact, it was your dedicated work on the kiffish language, that inspired me to set to work on Ragi.

I would be happy to host your language pages. I have geocities.


please, have some https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif
 , and would you mind helping me introduce the wonders of :spam & Monty Python to the atevi?
https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593494.8662-smiley.gif



have nice days.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 336
(11/4/05 8:14 am)
Reply
New Post Re: hrhspence-ji! Greetings, nand' hrhspence!

Let us immediately dust off an office here at the University of Shejidan, for the Department of Foreign Languages. [sends a couple grad students off to do so]

Tea will be ready in a moment. [sends an undergrad off to make tea] Please, honor us with your company!

Quote:one wonders what would happen if the Ragi language simply continued to 'evolve' out of control, in the hands of the people motivated by such things, many of whom are sitting right here ...

I had an interesting series of email messages with nand'cherryh on the language of the Hani and the Kiff. This was last millenium, 1997 or so. I ended up creating both languages based on her work and then submitting them to her. She seemed to like them. I tried to take on the Ragi language, but became distracted ...

And now, by good fortune, you have returned just as the next generation of scholars was steeling themselves to take on the Ragi language again. (We were just at the stage of bringing ourselves to admit out loud that the fragements of Ragi quoted in the books may not derive from a well-formed language on nand' Cherryh's desk. This strikes us a heresy. How could nand' Cherryh, who is a linguist herself, cut corners on languages? But this seems to be the case.) We would appreciate all the help we can get.

And the first help you have already brought us, is that
* nand' Cherry does not neccessarily start out with well- crafted languages, and
* she would probably not be offended by people developing details of Ragi.

Please, we have a number of linguists here who would be glad to collaborate.

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
the mule
Paidhi-aiji
Posts: 4460
(11/4/05 8:59 am)
Reply
New Post Re: hrhspence-ji! Hey Spence! good to hear from you again. Hope the family are all well. I'm sure there are a number of language scholars here keen to pick your brain down to the cortex

;)

hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1698
(11/4/05 6:59 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: hrhspence-ji! Wow, what a welcome! I am blushing at your exuberance.

I shall endeavor to format the Hani, Kiffish and perhaps the Stsho Babble Text pages ready to email to you for hosting on your site. I shall then dig out my work on Ragi and prepare it for use.

My biggest problem, with both Mahen and Ragi, was assigning lexical meanings to the sentences that Nand'cherryh had published in her chef d'œuvre. INventing the rest of the language was easy and I think I still have a proto-form we can hit with a hammer.

Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 542
(11/4/05 7:15 pm)
Reply New Post Re: hrhspence-ji!
take your time with the conversion - and if you want to distribute it for converting, that's okay too.

as to Mahen...one theory many of us here've agreed may be valid...is that some parts of the Mahen pidgin is context-dependant.

(and then you have the a, and ei and ai in other Cherryh-made languages)

ps: chef...what? *curious*


http://strengthofthehills.tripod.com/hanilanguageandculturepage/   

The date I joined the original board: 12/04/2002
 
     Thread Starter
 

4/21/2020 8:19 pm  #4


Re: Notes on CJ's various languages

Dec 24, 2006#5hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1700
(11/4/05 7:25 pm)
Reply | Edit New Post chef d'œuvre [it's French for master piece]

I am thinking a lot of the Mahen is in professional code or in 5 or 6 different dialects. If you could send me an email with the details of hosting the two pages I would appreciate it.

Edited by: hrhspence at: 11/4/05 8:28 pm
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 543
(11/4/05 8:23 pm)
Reply New Post Re: chef d'œuvre
email sent. look for mail from Keenir or Anthony.

Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 544
(11/4/05 8:24 pm)
Reply New Post Re: notes for chef d'œuvre
italics < i >
bold < b >
I'll send you the code for the frame once you reply. thanks.

hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1701
(11/4/05 8:41 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: notes for chef d'œuvre BABEL TEXT IN THE KIFFISH TONGUE

The Kiffish Language is a joint effort of CJ Cherryh's and mine. I approached her in an email message and suggested that I fill out the Hani, Kiffish, Stsho and Mahendosat languages that she started for her Chanur series. As I am a linguist and enjoy creating languages, she approved and has been overseeing me in this project.

The Babel project is run by Jeff Henning as a means of demonstrating Created languages in a single text. Below, the language of CJ Cherryh's Kiff is demonstrated in the 'Babel Text:' Gen. 11:1-9, the story of the creation of humanities languages at the tower of Babel.

There are three types of text below, 1, the romanization of the text in Kiffish. 2, the word for word translation and 3, the nearest approximation of the translation back into English. After the text there are several grammatical notes.

SGKHR-IKKT SKKIR-KTA TERAKTA
[time line/history][organize/gen][Earth/gen]
Chronicle of the Organization of the Earth (Genesis)

Ghurrukt-up hekhttekht rukt-up faisg ghinkt-up khtef-ktakkt-kkt
[eleven/th] [chapter] [one/th] [until] [nine/th] [word/packet/pl]
eleventh chapter, first through nineth verses


RUKT: Ginkt-ku umankt-kkt Tera-kta kkisf-ok ruk-ku kkoiskk-otk ruk-ku trakk-ska, tha.

ONE: [all/adj] [human/pl] [Earth/gen] [speak/past] [one/adj] [language/abs.] [one/adj] [way/instr] [reported]

ONE: It is reported that all humans of Earth spoke one language in one way.


KTUM: Sgat kktokht-ok sothog-otk naigh-lit gukkt ktokkkt aim-otk gekk-ku rekt sfig-lit Shinar-kta khtosf-ok khtan ktaip-ok.

TWO: [as] [journey/past] [clan/abs] [east/prep] [from] [they] [place/abs] [flat/adj] [in] [country/prep] [Shinar/gen] [find/past] [and] [live in/past]

TWO: As a clan from the east journeyed they found and dwelt in a flat place in the country of Shinar.


RUSKK: Skku-ok nokikkt shkhskk kkak: "Kkko-i sgigh-kkt-otk khtan noki-kkt ktoth-i." Rekkt, ktokkkt ufik-ok sgigh-kkt-otk roikt-ing khtan khtoir-otk skkoi-ku nkhn-ing.

THREE: [subordinate/past] [them] [therefore] [rumored]: "[make/imp] [brick/pl/abs] [and] [them] [fire in a kiln/imp]." [so], [they] [use/past] [brick/pl/abs] [stone/in place of] [and] [oil/abs] [black/adj] [cement/in place of].

THREE: It is rumored that they were subordinated in this manner: "Make bricks and burn them in a kiln." So, they used brick in the place of stone and black-oil in the place of cement.


NKH: Skku-ok sgonkt-thu nokikkt shkhskk kkak: "kkko-i nkhf-otk khtan gesg-otk makkt skthi gakt skth-os ktatr-otk; khtan sfik-chu-i makkt-uk nokkkt hukk-rok poi-lit sgakk Tera-ud."

FOUR: [subordinate/past] [more/adv] [them] [therefore] [rumored]: "[make/imp] [castle/abs] [and] [tower/abs] [that] [its] [top] [reach/fut] [heaven/abs]; [and] [face/increase/imp] [that/purp] [we] [not/be scattered] [surface/prep] [on] [Earth/part]."

FOUR: It was rumored that they were further subordinated in this manner: "Make a castle and a tower whose top will reach heaven and increase our 'sfik' so that we won't be scattered in the surface of the Earth."


KTKHNG: Kig-ok Treskk-ku Haikkt-otk makkt-uk ktk ta-sfo nkht-nktain-otk khtan gesg-nktain-otk makkt umankt-kkt ktaikkt-zik, mak.

FIVE: [descend/past] [Lord/adj] [God/abs] [that/purp] [he] [see/cond] [castle/so-called/abs] [and] [tower/so-called/abs] [that] [human/pl] [build/anter], [assumed].

FIVE: It was assumed that the Lord God descended that he might see the so called castle and tower that the humans had built.


KTENG: Treskk-ku Haikkt tinkt-ok, "Kktkktkkt! Umankt-kkt-otk ktkhtr-o khtan ktokkkt ginkt-ku kkisf-o ruk-ku kkoiskk-otk; kktunkt-ska, hakkaip-otk pok-os nokikkt-lit ktokk skthikkt trek-nkte-lit gukkt.

SIX: [Lord/adj] [God] [say/past] "[disapproving noise]! [human/pl/abs] [unite/pres] [and] [they] [all/adj] [speak/pres] [one/adj] [language/abs]; [this/inst], [nothing/abs] [be-held/fut] [them/prep] [or] [their] [imagine/out-of-control/prep] [from].

SIX: It is reported that the Lord God said, "[disapproving noise]! The humans are united and they all speak one language; With this, nothing will be held from them or their out of control imagination.


RUK: "Ktkkkt sgkhkt-os pigh khtan sgaskk-esg-os skthikkt kkoiskk-otk makkt-uk ktokkkt sgaskk-i hukk nokikkt-esg," tha.

SEVEN: "[we] [go/fut] [there] [and] [understand/dis-/fut] [their] [language/abs] [that/purp] [they] [understand/affirm] [not] [them/dis-]," [reported].

SEVEN: "We will go there and confuse their language so they won't understand each other."


PAIKHT: Rekkt, rok-ok Treskk-ku Haikkt nokikkt pigh-lit gukkt poi-lit sgakk Tera-ud, tha.

EIGHT: [so], [scatter/past] [Lord-adj] [God] [them] [there/prep] [from] [surface/prep] [on] [Earth/part], [reported].

EIGHT: So, it is reported, the Lord God scattered them from there on the surface of the Earth.


GHINKT: Rekkt-chu, taikkt skthi Papel-otk, ktokk sgaskk-esg-gu-otk; kkkotok Treskk-ku Haikkt pigh-tok sgaskk-esg-ok ginkt-ku umankt-kkt-otk: khtan rok-ok nokikkt pigh-lit gukkt poi-lit sgakk Tera-ud, na.

NINE: [so/intens], [name] [its] [Babel/abs], [or] [understand/dis-/place/abs]; [because] [Lord/adj] [God] [there/loc] [understand/dis-/past] [all/adj] [human/pl/abs]: [and] [scatter/past] [them] [there/prep] [from] [surface/prep] [on] [Earth/part], [observed]

NINE: Therefore, it is as I have seen, that the name of it is called 'Babel,' or ' the Place of Misunderstanding': because the Lord God confused all the humans and scattered them from that place on the surface of the Earth.

Grammatical Notes

abs = absolutive case, direct objects or subjects of intransitive verbs
adj = adjective
adv = adverb
affirm = affirmative INTMA mood marker
anter = anterior INTMA aspect marker
cond = conditional INTMA mood marker
dis- = affix which reverses meaning of the root word
fut = future tense conjugation
gen = genetive case, or 'of'
imp = imperative INTMA mood marker
inst = instrumental case, or 'with'
intens = affix which intensifies the meaning of the root word
loc = locative case, tells location
part = partative case, indicates that a portion of this root modifies another
past = past tense conjucation
pl = plural form
prep = prepositional case, indicates a preposition will modify this root
pres = present tense conjugation
purp = affix demonstrating a purpose

The following particles: assumed, observed, reported, and rumored are stative markers which allow a kiff to tell his relationship to the validity of an action, a necessary function of their culture.

hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1702
(11/4/05 8:58 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: notes for chef d'œuvre Here is the translation of Gen 11:1-9 into the An'dorian language, an artificial language I created for the Andorian peoples from Star Trek.


Iz kiidoothiin uk kiidoohee nguun'duzaa aam ep kuuv'thiinphokh haat aam eeh Kamiphaa.
[The first through ninth word-lines of the ten-oneth chapter of the Startings]

thiin: Pum iim raphibaa muteraahaa im riihib eb ar oorpa.
[one: And all they from Terra the same language spoke.]

ziiv: Pum, bed eh kageet aam Eb meeng ar oorluul, utaa aahvaad zu on og aam Zhinaar ar oorgiir pum red ar oornoo.
[two: And when many of the East journeyed, they a plane within the land of Shinar found and there dwelt.]

puung: Pum utaa puh ar oortah, phu "Itaa khuuz. Pum itaa aah kaazaa voh pum rid." Pum utaa ah kaazaa pum aah zoo'zheez rud ooh radaa pum uub kahuul ar oorkop.
[three: And they to each other said that "You go. And you bricks make and burn." And they the bricks and black-foam for stones and cement used.

gaar: Pum utaa puh ar oortah, phu "Ataa oh puuh pum iiz vi, phu ep zup phazh Neel'riikh iv em zenuth, diiph; pum ataa zov iiz uh pith, thekh ngoohataa uk ah zeeraphaa vaadaa aam iiz og do iith embuthung."
[four: And they to each other said, that "We a city and a tower, whose top towards (and menacing) Sky-dwelling shall reach, will build; and we ourselves a name shall call, so that we will be throughout all the planes of the land not scattered."]

khaaph: Pum im Ziih'ngiip ov oornguungev rud oh puuh pum iz vi, phu iim zhiibaa aam iim muterrahaa ud oordiiph, ta moor.
[five: And the Lord-god came down for the city and tower, which the children of the Terrans had built, to see.]

Paaph: Pum im ziih'ngiip oortah phu "Itaa thuph! Iim zipaa aadriih, pum utaa im riihib ed aadpa; pum utaa iz vi aaddiph, pum, roopib, hukuug dihulaa iv empuuthuth, phu utaa ud iib ooreegiir ta kuug."
[six: And the Lord-god said that,"You look! The people sames and they the same language speak; and they the tower build, and, now no action from them can be held, that they have wanted to imagine to put in action."]

Mooh: "Ataa ennguung, pum red, ataa oh hepizh'aam'muub aa unaa ed ov emgookhev, phu utaa im ed aam puh do iv emviz'theluth."
[seven: "We will go down, and there, we the council-of-controversy through (and destroying) their language will surely bring, that they the language of each other may not learn-know."]

zaath: Thekh, in Ziih'ngiip ulaa uk ah zeeraphaa vaadaa aam Teraa oorbuth: pum utaa oh puuh ov oorzaag'diiphev.
[eight: So, the Lord-god them throughout the all planes of Terra did scatter: and they the city did stop-build.]

hee: Thekh, iz ngoohuh aam il 'Huzh'bem' oorpith; noot im Ziih'ngiip red oh hepizh'aam'muub aa im ed aam raphoo Teraa ov orgookhev: pum noot aam red im Ziih'ngiip ulaa uk ah zeeraphaa vaadaa aam Teraa oorbuth.
[nine: So, the name of it 'Babel-place' was called; in this way, the Lord-god there the council-of-controversy through (and destroying) the language of all Terra did bring: and in this way of there the Lord-god them throughout all the planes of Terra did scatter.

hrhspence
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Posts: 1703
(11/4/05 9:13 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: notes for chef d'œuvre Babel text for the Hani language

1h. Fai-shukh-aarn nai-Terra lin-aarn hen-fhaif chuch hen-fhaan.

1e. [the/all/adj.] [s/Earth] [one/adj] [3psa/language] and [3psa/speech].


2h. Viarr, ri nai-neg shaih-hiuman-aa-im fai-rrach-haur hen-bek, ri nai-hen-aa fai-kah-gfaan Shinar-im hen-chuj-m'ha shiah-nab chuch hen-mosh-m'ha chai-nup.

2e. As, [past] [s/group] [a/human/plural/of] [the/east/from] [3psa/journey], past [s/3p/pl] [the/land/in] [Shinar/of] [3psa/find/3poa] [a/plane] and [3psa/dwell/3poa] [d.o./there].


3h. Ri nai-hen-aa hen-rukh-m'ha kha chai-laam, "Re nai-mur m'chaun-m'ha chai-shir-aa chuch shaohsh-aarn mur-khaumsam'ha chai-hen-aa." Nai-hen-aa chai-turr-aa-viarr hen-shiarr-m'ha chai-shir-aa chuch chai-orr-chup-viarr hen-shiarr-m'ha chai-ull.

3e. [past] [s/3p/pl] [3psa/say/3poa/reflexive] [d.o./this] [imperative] [s/1p] [1psa/make/3poa] [d.o./brick/pl] and [complete/adj] [1psa/fire/3poa] [D.O/3p/pl] [s/3p/pl] [the/stone/pl/as] [3psa/use/3poa] [d.o./brick/pl] and [d.o./solid/oil/as] [3psa/use/3doa] [d.o/morter].


4h. Ri nai-hen-aa hen-rukh-m'ha chai-laam, "Re nai-mur mur-chi mur-chaul-m'ha chai-jiahn chuch chai-naukh tai-faat hauitia nai-mur fai-kuut-aa-khe hen-bog-m'ha; re nai-mur mur-chi mur-gaif-m'ha chai-llauhn uukh haatia khai-mur-aa kurr-aarn fai-nekhrhof fai-terra-im mur'rrib.

4e. [past] [s/3p/pl] [3psa/say/3pd.o.a] [d.o./this] [imperative] [s/1p/pl] [1p/for] [1psa/build/3poa] [d.o./city] and [d.o./tower] [possessive/relative clause marker] [future/desire/affirmative] [3psa/top] [d.o./heaven/pl] [s3pa/reach/d.o.a]; [imperative] [s/1p] [1p/for] [1psa/make/d.o.a] [d.o./name] so [not/affirm] [passive/1p/pl] [away/adj] [prep/surface/on] [prep/Earth/of] [1psa/scatter].


5e. Ri Na nai-Rraohm hen-raos uukh nai-hen h'-gfirr-m'ha chai-jiahn chuch chai-naukh, chai-faat ri-rait fai-hiuman-im nai-chaach-aa hen-chauul-m'ha.

5h. [past] Lord [s/God] [3psa/descend] so [s/3p] [3psa/see/d.o.a] [d.o./city] and [d.o./tower] [d.o./relativiser] [past/anterior] [prep/human/of] [s/child/pl] [3psa/build/d.o.a].

6e. Ri na nai-Rraohm hen-rukh-m'ha chai-laam, "fai-shukh-aarn nai-hiuman-aa hen-chan chuch hen-fhiaf; haa-hau-ro-tia khai-haamrhaohch, chai-faat ri-rait nai-hen-aa h'-siaj-m'ha, hen-haurr h'-mia-naohs-m'ha.

6h. [past] Lord [s/God] [3psa/say/d.o.a] [d.o./this] [prep/all/adj] [s/humam/pl] [3psa/unite] and [3psa/language]; [neg/fut/det/aff] [passive/nothing], [d.o./relative clause maker] [past/anterior] [s/3p/pl] [3psa/imagine/d.o.a] [3p/from] [3psa/away/hold/d.o.a].

7h. "Re nai-mur-aa m'-raos chuch nu-paarn mur-kaf-m'ha tai-hen chai-fhiaf, uukh haa-hau-ro-tia nai-hen-aa h'-rhaarn-m'ha tai-ges chai-fhaan."

7e [imp] [s/1p/pl] [1psa/descend] and [there/adj] [1psa/confuse/d.o.a] [possessive/3p] [d.o./language] so [neg/fut/det/aff] [s/3p/pl] [3psa/understand/d.o.a] [possessive/other] [d.o./speech].


8h. Uukh, ri Na nai-Rraohm kurr-aarn fai-nekhrh-of fai-terra-im mur-'-rrib-m'ha chai-hen-aa: chuch ri nai-hen-aa h'-llaig-m'ha fai-jiahn-im chai-chaul.

8e. So, [past] Lord [s/God] [away/adj] [prep/surface/on] [prep/Earth/of] [3psa/this appostrophe is for the Roman alphabet; it's not needed in the Hani script;1 r and 2r's are separate letters in Hani/scatter/d.o.a] [d.o./3p/pl] and [past] [s/3p/pl] [3psa/stop/d.o.a] [prep/city/of] [d.o./build].


9h. Rhau, ri khai-Babel, nai-faat hen'-sem-m'ha chai-kaf, nai-hen h'-pukh-m'ha; rrum ri Na nai-Rraohm shukh-aarn fai-terra-im hem-kaf-m'ha chai-fhiat: chuch ri Na nai-Rraom kurr-aarn fai-nekhrh- fai-terra-im hem'-rrib-m'ha chai-hen-aa.

9e. Therefore, [past] [passive/Babel], [s/relative clause marker] [3psa/mean/d.o.a] [d.o./confuse], [s/3p] [3psa/call/d.o.a]; because [past] Lord [s/God] [all/adj] [prep/Earth/of] [3psa/confuse/d.o.a] [d.o./language] and [past] Lord [s/God] [away/adj] [prep/surface/on] [prep/Earth/of] [3psa/scatter/d.o.a] [d.o./3p/pl.]

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 345
(11/4/05 9:30 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: notes for chef d'œuvre Very nice!

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Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 346
(11/5/05 3:50 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: back to Ragi OK, back to Ragi. Back to really basic -- what letters are in the alphabet.

Vowels
A (usually short)
AI (long)
E (usually short) I have found no examples of words starting or ending with E.
EI (long)
I (long)
O (long)
U (listed in the Pronunciation appendix as 'oo', would that count as 'long'?)

Consonants
B
('C' occurs only at the beginning of a few names. In English, 'C' is an ambiguous letter, being redundant with 'k' and 's'. What does it mean when a Ragi word is transliterated into English with a 'C'? Can we assume this is the same Ragi letter as 'K'?)
Ch
D
('F' occurs only at the beginning of two personal names.)
G
H
J
K
('L' only occurs in a few names.)
M
N
P
R
S
T
('V' occurs in a few names.)
W

These consonants have been found ending words:
D, N, M, S, T

I suspect there will be some revisions needed to the Mongolian font. Starting with characters for AI and EI, which should be treated as single letters in Ragi, and dropping Sh.

Am I missing anything?

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This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1709
(11/5/05 11:57 pm)
Reply | Edit New Post ragi again I have found that the CV pattern in Ragi is very strong. So strong that few if any non-nasal consonants ever occure post-vocalically. The thought occured that perhaps those words containing the post-vocal consonants are not ragi, but loan words from the dreadded east.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 351
(11/6/05 5:33 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: ragi again

Quote:I have found that the CV pattern in Ragi is very strong.

That would be Consonant-Vowel, yes?

Quote:few if any non-nasal consonants ever occur post-vocalically.

The only nasal consonants we have in Ragi are N and M, right? I'm not sure what 'post-vocalically' means. What surprises me is that syllables can end with consonants that are never used to end words. I really don't understand the syllable-formation in Ragi. (Or, I keep expecting this to make sense.)

Then there is the consonant-followed-by-H issue. I can accept this (as two separate sounds) between syllables, but at the beginning of a word? How is that supposed to be pronounced? That is difficult for me, being a native English speaker, and more used to several consonants together. But it seems so unlikely for Ragi speakers.

Quoteerhaps those words containing the post-vocal consonants are not ragi, but loan words from the dreaded east.

Or, I'm pretty sure that only recently has Ragi become the dominant language in the West. So there are probably loan words from other Western languages, too.

I tentatively mark C, F, V, and L as used only in names with foreign (non-Ragi) influence, and have some suspicion about W and E.

Have you ever found anything resembling a grammatical pattern in Ragi?

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This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 551
(11/6/05 7:43 pm)
Reply New Post re: Ragi again
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>I have found that the CV pattern in Ragi is very strong.
>That would be Consonant-Vowel, yes?

that's the way I learned it...but there i be meanings I don't know...yet.


>Have you ever found anything resembling a grammatical pattern in Ragi?

it may be we're looking for correlations ("this ethnic group speaks this dialect, while their neighbors borrowed words with that accent to them")....while the nature of atevi may be to flummox those very efforts.

yes, CJC says that there are ethnic groups (Edi, Ragi)...but far more often than she says that, she tells us that man'chi determines associations, and that atevi society revolves around man'chi.

on Earth, with humans, we can at least try to draw boundary lines of ethnic groups & dialects\languages...but the atevi may be too fluid for that.


did that make any sense, nadiin?

have some https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif
 , please.

hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1710
(11/6/05 8:25 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: re: Ragi again Sorry, CV means Consonant-Vowel as you surmised. Vocalic refers to vowels so post-vocalic means immediately after a vowel. And n & m are the only nasals in Ragi that I have seen, I don't remember if there is an ng or not, but it would be a nasal sound if it were present.

I think Nand'Cherryh has given us a few clues to sort out the apparent repetition of words: homophones and different dialects or even languages.

The easiest way to do this is to get a data base made of utterances and persons that utter them, with notes to ethnic background if it is listed. Two years or so ago, I went through the first 6 books and highlighted all the ragi utterences. I still have those books and could do this, but it will take a few days to compile it. Once a data base is made up it could be shared and then real analysis can begin. if anyone else has an idea on how to accomplish this. Now would be a good time to discuss it.

The grammar reminds me a small bit of Japanese with the honorifics and all. But, this one will take a bit of work to hammer into place. Plus, Nand'Cherryh is working on the next book as we discuss this. What she adds in alter what we propose. Perhaps we can discuss with her and find out what she'd like to happen.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 352
(11/7/05 6:56 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Ragi again

Quote:The easiest way to do this is to get a data base made of utterances and persons that utter them, with notes to ethnic background if it is listed.

Most of that is in nand'Rodlox's website. There are a few new additions here on this thread that may not yet have actually been added on the website. I will check my notes this afternoon -- I found one or two new lines recently that I don't remember if I have posted here or not.

Lately, nand'Rodlox's website and this thread have been the central collection of Ragi material.

Quotelus, Nand'Cherryh is working on the next book as we discuss this.

Plus one book already at the printer -- meaning more Ragi we can neither view nor influence at the moment! Unless someone (like perhaps nand'Spence) can sweet-talk her out of a preview of the Ragi words used in Pretender? That wouldn't give away anything of the plot.

I nominate nand'Spence as our liason with nand'Cherryh, because he has experience working with her, and credibility with her.

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This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 534
(11/7/05 10:26 am)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Ragi again Let me review my copy of Pretender & see what Ragi there is to pass on.

Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 535
(11/7/05 11:37 am)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Ragi again From Pretender. Italics are CJC's.

Proverb:

Quote:Kaid' airuni manomini ad heiji

"It is hard to see the provinces from the capitol."



Jago is speaking to Bren:

Quote:"We should go back upstairs, nandi, where we have some control over the perimeter."

The operationally dual we, with the -ta, the numerical compensator, as if she were going with him but as if Banichi were not.




Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 536
(11/7/05 12:00 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Ragi again An allied clan (the folk of Dur) calls out:

Quote:"Hai! The cheer went up, to a man....
"Hai for Dur!"...



Later on, Bren & Algini were discussing logistics:

Quote:Algini lapsed into the passive voice precisely where the critical who would logically be other Guild, as clearly as if he had shouted it. Guild or operatives of the aiji, which would still be Guild--were implied to be taking those measures, out in front..."

Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 537
(11/7/05 12:27 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Ragi again Banichi speaks to Bren:

Quote:"....was a great favor to them. They express deep gratitude."

Murdi. That gratitude word, different than man'chi.


In the hasdrawad chambers:

Quote:The eis thrummed, three insistent strokes. The vibrations overran their own echoes, and hurt human ears.

It hurt atevi hearing, too, perhaps far worse than that....

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 355
(11/7/05 12:59 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: Ragi again Oh, wonderful Sk8er! Thank you!

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This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Sabina B
Shai-Shan Service Staff
Guild Assassin
Posts: 2559
(11/7/05 2:03 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: Ragi again Buäääh.
And we have to wait till next February to read Pretender.

You have so tickled my curiosity.

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Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 554
(11/7/05 2:14 pm)
Reply New Post Re: murdi
>Murdi

reading that...I can't help but wonder if the current "Aiji" has a name derived from that or a variant of murdi.

just a thought.


http://strengthofthehills.tripod.com/hanilanguageandculturepage/   

The date I joined the original board: 12/04/2002
 
     Thread Starter
 

4/21/2020 8:22 pm  #5


Re: Notes on CJ's various languages

Dec 24, 2006#6Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 357
(11/7/05 5:02 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: murdi Murdi, which was kurdi last book!

Now, shall we attribute that to differences in dialect? https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593454.1402-smiley.gif


____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 328
(11/7/05 6:02 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: murdi Possible though M and K are not naturaly confused.....however......M and B are, and that takes us to B and P! Now we know that P and Q have been dialects of the same language (literaly we have P-celtic and Q-celtic).

So its possible that this is a development of a language division, one side using K the other using P which changes to B.

Interesting to hear news about the comming book.

Hmmmmm

"Kaid' airuni manomini ad heiji"

"It is hard to see the provinces from the capitol."

That having no words we've seen before.

Edited by: Zen9 at: 11/7/05 6:05 pm
hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1714
(11/7/05 7:44 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: murdi It looks like we're very close to being finished with the Taxonomic side of our linguistic endeavor.

I have attempted to contact nand'cherryh, but I am unsure of which email addy she is currently using. I just sent it to cj at her domain name. But that was a few years ago. If anyone has a more up-to-date addy, send it to me at my user name (from this site), plus hotmail.com.

Zen! I am glad you are on board. Your knowledge of possible dialectical shifts will come in handy. I am thinking that all words with pos-vocallic consonants will be from a different language family than Ragi. Not just different dialects.

I am thinking I may need to retrofit a proto-Western and then derive several daughter languages. This won't be hard. It will take me a few hours with the system developed a decade ago. Coming up with the original Ragi will be the one that takes the most time. I did this when I created a Proto-High Vulcan, Old High Vulcan, & Vulcan then Old Romulan & Modern Romulan.

Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 556
(11/7/05 8:30 pm)
Reply New Post Re: shoes
>in, "I see a pair of shoes I want...and I feel a short story coming on!!" (This is an actual quote.) Men may not understand this...but women will!

>In fact, people ask so frequently "where do you get your ideas?" that she is threatening to incorporate the above "inspiration" as her standard reply.

*tries to imagine an ateva shopping for shoes*

nope, sorry. can't picture it.

https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593454.1402-smiley.gif


Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 557
(11/7/05 8:36 pm)
Reply New Post update made
updated my website.

thoughts?

corrections?

(yes, I know I put https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593452.8325-smiley.gif
 in there thrice...not enough?)
https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593454.1402-smiley.gif



now for a https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593455.1633-smiley.gif
 (a cuppa) chocolate milk...

and https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif
 of course.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 358
(11/7/05 9:21 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage [Grrr! I am constantly finding new ways to delete my own posts. This time I will try a number of shorter posts, instead of trying to politely put everything into one.]

A couple quotes from older posts, adding the speaker:

Quote:"Sha nauru shina" I'll contact you. {Precursor p. 133 paperback}

Jase, to Bren

Quote:"Hold on. Jai! Atira'na. Don't let go." Precursor p. 137 paperback}

Jase, to Bren and his entourage

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 359
(11/7/05 9:50 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage And some new ones:

"Aishimaran to thema. Almost untranslatable: sweeping the boundary. Clearing troublesome disputed areas from an associational edge." {Defender p. 280 pb} Yolanda, quoting Tabini, possibly a proverbial phrase

Shigai (used as a code word, unless it literally means something like 'come here') {Explorer p.371 pb}

teigi - a grazing game animal {Destroyer p. 216 pb}

abi - a bland fruit juice [presumably the fruit?] {Explorer p. 398 pb}

goda - boiled grain {Precursor p. 148 pb}

boti, pl.botiin - robot, computer-operated manufacturing or mining machine {Precursor p. 283 pb}
(in Explorer, p. 352, called roboti, possibly to avoid recapping why the word was shortened.)

damighindi - flavor of the orange sweets, probably a fruit {Precursor p. 322 pb}

mantos an - an order for high-level security alert within the residence {Precursor p. 342 pb}

cahi - proposal, [statement in a formal speech] {Defender p. 20 pb}
Oh, no! The letter C outside a name!

kabiu'tera - [traditional-style of interior decorating] {Defender p. 78 pb}

maogishi - breakdown of [social] order, fragmentation {Defender p. 129 pb}

mani - [what Cajeiri calls Ilisidi, apparently not meaning 'grandmother']

Quote:"Yes, mani-ma"
"Grandmother will do," Ilisidi said sharply. "Aiji will do better." {Defender p. 347 pb}

Defender p. 347 etc., Explorer p. 409

meni - [probably "young"]
[Bren calls Cajeiri, aiji-meni and nandi-meni] {Explorer p. 116 pb}

minuta - minutes, human time reckoning {Explorer p. 155 pb}

aishi-prejid - "essential strength of civilized association", "the web of association",[relationship among members of assn] {Explorer p. 337 pb}

Edit to correct special-character quote marks

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Edited by: Nepenti at: 11/8/05 12:56 pm
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 561
(11/7/05 9:57 pm)
Reply New Post a Proposal https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593454.1402-smiley.gif




>maogishi - breakdown of [social] order, fragmentation {Defender p. 129 pb}

and of course there's aishi (as in aishi patterns).


perhaps ishi is not -ishi a suffix at all.

perhaps both a- and maog- are prefixes, instead.


tis just a thought.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 360
(11/7/05 10:02 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Male Personal Names (with ethicity, where known)
Aidin
Ajresi (Hagrani)
Algini
Badissuni (Marid)
Banichi
Barjida
Beiguri
Bindanda
Borujiri
Brominandi
Brosimi
Caratho
Casurni
Cenedi (Malguri)
Cori (Taiben)
Dagina
Dasibi
Dataini
Desari
Djinana (Malguri)
Dureni
Eidi
Eigji
Fedi
Geigi
Grigiji
Hadini
Jegari (Taiben)
Jeiniri (Taiben)
Jeladi
Kalasi (Malguri)
Kandana
Keimi (Taiben)
Lasari
Madinais
Maigi (Malguri)
Manadgi
Manasi
Mandi (Malguri)
Moni
Murini (Kadig)
Naidiri
Narani
Nawari
Nojana
Panida
Parano
Parigi
Rejiri (Niliini)
Sagimi
Saigimi (Hagrani)
Sarosi
Suriaji
Tabini (Ragi)
Taigi
Tano
Tatiseigi
Valasi (Ragi)

Female Personal Names
Antaro (Taiben)
Caminidi (Ateg)
Caneso
Cosadi (Hagrani)
Dala
Damiri (Atigeini)
Dathio (ateg)
Deiso (Taiben)
Direiso (Kadigidi)
Ilisidi (Malguri)
Jago
Lamiji (Ateg)
Madig (Ateg.)
Ruso
Sabiso
Saidin (Ateg.)
Sasi (Atig)
Tiburi (Samiusi)
Tigani

Personal Names, Gender Unknown
Audiri
Baighi
Casirnabri
Celaso
Fari
Gesirimu
Kabisu
Lagonaidi
Marin
Nadimi
Naijo
Pagioni
Paidigi
Parijo
Pogari
Sigiadi
Tabona
Tagisi
Taigi

House/Clan/Family Names
Atigeini
Hagrani
Kadigidi
Niliini
Samiusi
Maladesi

Place Names
Adaran
Adjaiwaio (prov?)
Aisinandi
Alujis (river)
Bergid (mt range)
Berigai prov (in Bergid mts.)
Caruija (forest)
Cobo
Dajoshu
Dalaigi
Deinali (prov)
Desigien
Didaini (prov)
Dur-wajran
Eighin
Elijiri
Entaillan (prov)
Fagioni
Gioli
Korami (prov)
Ladisiri
Laigin
Magisiri
Maidingi (lake)
Maidingi (prov)
Malguri (prov)
Mogari-nai (mt)
Mospheira
Naigi
Nanjiran
Nisebi (prov)
Onondisi Bay
Padi Vaalley
Raigan
Rigun
Saduri
Saigiadi
Saisuran
Sarini (prov)
Shejidan
Shigi
Sidonin
Taimani (prov)
Talidi (prov)
Tasigin Marid
Weinathi Bridge
Wigairiin
Wiigin
Wingin

(At least on the human planet, place names often derive from a different language than the current language of a region.)

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 361
(11/7/05 10:13 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote: perhaps ishi is not -ishi a suffix at all.
perhaps both a- and maog- are prefixes, instead.

Good spotting, Rodlox!

I'm sure I'm still forgetting to post data from my notes ...
I have a lot of comments people make about the language. I suppose I should post all those. Not tonight.

Meanwhile, I need to look over all the new information.

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1716
(11/7/05 11:59 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Nepenti! good work. I shall add this to my personal data base, cutting and pasting yours is much easier than typing it all in myself.

Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 328
(11/8/05 6:20 am)
Reply
New Post Re: murdi hrhspence

I'm not sure one should be so 'breezy' about the task of constructing Ragi let alone it past forms.

Constructing Indo-European had a lot more to work with than we do. As they did constructing proto-germanic.

I'm not even sure we can say what is truely Ragi and what is not, even if their dialect or linguistic borrowings, the most obvious languages would be those closest to Ragi in geography. Many of which may well be close relatives anyway, making it hard to distinguish without a LOT of information we don't have.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 363
(11/8/05 11:11 am)
Reply
New Post Re: murdi How did we miss this one? :b

Quote:"Nadiin-sai, machi arai'si na djima sa dimajin tasu." Keep playing that until further notice.

machi from the same root as machimi
(historical drama)

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 364
(11/8/05 12:48 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage with Rodlox's -ishi root (social relationship),
MISHIDI (socially awkward) may also belong to that root

Quote:"Masji sig' triti didamei'shi." (Tabini, at first radio contact with Phoenix)

Is this sig' related to sigaiji (aiji without followers)?
And why do Ragi speakers ever cut off the ending of a word to make it end in a consonant?

btw, I have 144 words (not counting names) in my copy of the database, many of whose meanings we do not know.

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 365
(11/8/05 1:29 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage "Post-Vocallic" #1 -- Statistics on Words Ending with a Consonant
(excluding -N)
Total of 13 words; 9/13 are one-syllable words
-S 4, -D 3, -T 2, -R 1
Contractions (remember nandi -- nand'), 3 cases: -G' 2, -D' 1
(I think ' is meant as an apostrophe, for contraction, here. It would be redundant to put a stop at the end of a word.)

All three words ending in -D, and one ending in -S, have other multiple consonants. Any word, especially a word of more than one syllable, ending in a consonant other than -N (and possibly -S), can be suspected foreign.

Statistics on more-than-a-single-consonant:
(I am counting SH, TH, DH, GH, and KH as a separate sitiuation. The H is nearly silent in these combinations.)

Words beginning with two consonants: 4
3 PR-, 1 TR-
2 of the 4 known to be loan words from Mosphei'.
Strong reason to suspect the other two as foreign: aishi-prejid, pros

"Post-vocallic" #2 - Two consonants in the middle of a word
(Excluding words known to be of foreign origin (arispesa), and two beverages (DAJDI, MIDARGA))
N(somthing) 9 (NT 2, ND 2), S(something) 6, TK 1, THM 1, GJ 1
Words with two consonants together in the middle of a word should be suspected, unless the first consonant is N or S.
____________________
Or, as nand'Spence would say,
I submit that: N and possibly S are the only allowable post-vocallic consonants in words of Ragi origin.

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This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 566
(11/8/05 3:23 pm)
Reply New Post paired letters or words?
what about paired letters\words? or what about pairings that only look like pairings?

(an example -- Japanese on Earth is a firmly CV language (or so I've been told), yet it has names such as Saito, as well as names and words with double constanants, /sh/ for example...and who can ever forget kamakazee?)

so we have to step carefully with transliterations.


just a thought.

Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 329
(11/8/05 6:35 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Hmmm...

machi - ?
mashidi - awkward
Machimi - play


I like the idea of ishi being a rout or ending there.
Can we be sure all words having a ' at the end like sig' are contractions?

That said "first" and "alone" are not incompatible. So sig could be the word for 'one' or 'first' or 'only' or even all of them in context.

Perhaps then
"Masji sig' triti didamei'shi." (Tabini, at first radio contact with Phoenix).
Is in fact something like "contact first treaty Pheonix with", but that would hold that shi is a form of 'be' and not an ending which it clearly is .
So maybe its "Had first treaty(contact?) radio-by", leaving Tabini and Pheonix as implied only.

hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1720
(11/8/05 8:03 pm)
Reply | Edit New Post basic Atevi/English webpage Zen, I am well aware of the work ahead of us. But it is no where near the amount of labour needed in reconstructing actually spoken languages. I have nearly 200 listings so far from your work. When the taxonomy is done, we can start the analysis. I don't presume this will be quick or rapid. We will need to account for every single syllable.

But, after an artificial language is created, retro-fitting it for a proto-form is a very simple process of deciding what historical changes will have taken place and what exceptions will have taken place. Believe me, the real work will be accounting for all of CJ's utterances down to the smallest allophone.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 366
(11/8/05 8:28 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage We may be looking at two roots here:
ishi refering to social relationships - aishi, maogishi, mishidi
(In aishi the 'i' becoming absorbed into the 'ai' combination - but possibly still from the same root)
and machi - machi, machimi (In English, "play" occurs in both contexts, in the sense of 'repeating words'. Not conclusive, but suggestive.)

Plus another root sig- - one, first, alone, only

Quote:Can we be sure all words having a ' at the end like sig' are contractions?

No, we don't know that for sure. We know contractions sometimes take that form (nand')

Quote:Japanese on Earth is a firmly CV language (or so I've been told

I was under the impression each syllable was of the form:
(maybe a consonant) (vowel) (maybe an N)
So each syllable could have from one to three sounds, but only in that pattern. Some consonant sounds, like 'SH' or 'TS' take more than one English letter to write.

Quote:what about pairings that only look like pairings?

For Ragi, based on the Pronunciation section at the end of Foreigner, I was treating 'AI' and 'EI' as single vowel sounds, 'CH' as a single consonant sound, and 'SH', 'TH', 'DH', 'GH', 'KH' as - well, not the combined sound it might look like to an English-speaking human linguist, but not the same as two random consonants together - 'special case, status not yet determined'.

Quote: what about paired letters\words?

I don't understand the question.

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Sabina B
Shai-Shan Service Staff
Guild Assassin
Posts: 2560
(11/8/05 8:34 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Great, ezboard ate my post, and I wasn't even trying to use html.
edit: Still being obstinate about posting Japanese

I don't know, if you can do that with Japanese, Nepenti, it only truly works in a transcription afterall.

(I assume Rodlox meant ->) kamikaze = かみかぜ (written in Hiragana, see, there aren't any vowels anymore. And you can't even see the "singular" vowel sounds in those signs.)

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Edited by: Sabina B at: 11/8/05 8:45 pm
=1.154remQuote=1.154remEdit=1.154remShare    



Dec 24, 2006#7Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 567
(11/8/05 9:15 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage
Nepenti-ji,
you got what I meant by "paired"...I only said "paired words" as a typo -- I'd indeed meant "paired letters".


Sabina B-ji,
yes, that was what I meant by my example...spelling never was my strong suit. gracias.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 367
(11/8/05 9:36 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote:I don't know, if you can do that with Japanese, Nepenti, it only truly works in a transcription afterall.

Yes, well, we get to the end of what I know about Japanese pretty quickly. :o When I was in practice, I could read about a dozen kanji, plus some numerals, and couldn't pronounce any of those. And I could read about 3/4 of the Katakana.

So for each syllable, written phonetically,you have a character which is either a vowel or a consonant-vowel pair, and then a syllable can have an N at the end.
Better, Sabina-ji?

EZBoard seems to get upset about angle-brackets. '>'

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1723
(11/8/05 10:58 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Polynesian languages act this same way. They are the languages that make syllabaries. Ragi has always reminded me of Japanese for that reason and some of the culture traits, too.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 379
(11/10/05 10:03 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Statistics of Letter Usage in Ragi
(sounds like a disertation title, doesn't it?)

Number and percentage of occurances of each letter (counting AI and EI each a one letter)
:in all known atevi words
and then comparing
:in known loan-words & words of suspected non-Ragi origin
:in remaining words (more likely to be genuine Ragi origin)

Vowels:
overall less likely more likely
AI 42 12% 4 4 % 38 14%
EI 13 4 % 5 5 % 8 3%
A 120 33% 23 25% 97 35%
E 17 5 % 10 11% 7 3%
I 139 38% 39 43% 100 36%
O 20 5 % 7 8 % 13 5%
U 14 4 % 3 3 % 11 4%

'E' occurs mostly in words likely not of Ragi origin.
'EI' and 'O' suggest some suspicion of foreignness.
'U' is not a common letter at all.

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 380
(11/10/05 10:23 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage and the same for consonants:
(again, counting SH, TH, DH, GH, and KH combinations as a single unit for these statistics.)


overall less likely more likely
CH 9 2% 2 2% 7 2%
SH 18 5% 1 1% 17 6%
TH 4 1% 0 0% 4 1%
DH 1 0% 0 0% 1 0%
GH 6 2% 2 2% 4 1%
KH 1 0% 1 1% 0 0%
B 14 4% 6 7% 8 3%
C 1 0% 0 0% 1 0%
D 45 12% 16 18% 29 10%
F 0 0% 0 0% 0 0%
G 20 5% 6 7% 14 5%
H 14 4% 2 2% 12 4%
J 22 6% 2 2% 20 7%
K 9 2% 2 2% 7 2%
L 1 0% 1 1% 0 0%
M 43 11% 8 9% 35 12%
N 59 15% 11 12% 48 16%
P 11 3% 4 4% 7 2%
R 28 7% 7 8% 21 7%
S 39 10% 7 8% 32 11%
T 33 9% 11 12% 22 8%
V 1 0% 0 0% 1 0%
W 3 1% 1 1% 2 1%
Y 1 0% 1 1% 0 0%

383 91 24% 292

DH, KH, C, F, L, V, and Y are so rare they cannot be considered Ragi consonants.
B occurs strongly in words of non-Ragi origins.
G, D, T carry some suspicion.

Although I haven't included the data, K and P not at the beginning of a word occur only in non-Ragi words.

Everybody's eyes glazed over by now?
All this will also be handy when the time comes to invent more Ragi words.

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1731
(11/10/05 10:27 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Nepenti, I have only one word: Impressive. I will be devoting quite a bit of this holiday weekend to analysis of the lexicon. I hope to be able to post something worth reading. 8o :? 8)

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 381
(11/10/05 10:36 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Using these criteria for words not of Ragi orgin:
'Postvocalic' consonants other than N or S
Beginning with a double consonant
Containing B, C, DH, E, F, KH, L, V, W,Y
Containing K or P not at the beginning

the following words are suspected of not being Ragi origin:
(I think this catches all the words known to be of foreign origin)
abi
ajiimasisit
arispesa (3)
ateva (2)
athmai'in
Babsidi (2)
baji
basheigi
bihawa (2)
biichi-gi
boti
cahi
dahemidei
dajdi
Esili
ghiyi
goseni
hasdrawad (3)
insheibi
kabiu
kabiu'tera (2)
kur
kurdi
magji
midarga
midedeni
nebai (2)
noburanjiru
Nokhada
paidhi
prejid (2)
presidenta (2)
pros
sat
shibei
tashrid (2)
tekikin (2)
triti
wi’itkiti (3)

Words followed by a number fail more than one criterion.

[Enough for one night!]

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Sabina B
Shai-Shan Service Staff
Guild Assassin
Posts: 2561
(11/11/05 9:06 am)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Well, don't mind me, just coming back to Japanese.

There are such nice words as ryouyuu - りょうゆう (camerad), the two syllables would be ryou and yuu.

Or massugu - まっすぐ, there you can't seperate them into mas*sugu.

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hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1733
(11/11/05 3:42 pm)
Reply | Edit New Post a few ragi notes In book #2, invader page 405, there is an interesting point: Mecheiti on hillside shoving each other dangerously for position, because there was just one mecheit’aiji . . .

Mecheit is the root and i is an ending, that is replaced by another word beginning with a vowel: the compound in mecheit’aiji. Perhaps some of our difficulties with post-vocalic consonants are similar to this. I am referring to Tashrid (from a very ancient form of the language). Perhaps in actual spoken Ragi it’s called Tashridi and only the shr part is now no longer part of the current Ragi. Names are very slow to change and formal names the slowest.

I was thinking that like su in modern Japanese (pronounced sh) there are a few combinations that might sound to us like a post-vocalic consonent, but to the native speaker, it would be a CV combination.

Sabina B
Shai-Shan Service Staff
Guild Assassin
Posts: 2561
(11/11/05 5:36 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: a few ragi notes Actually Japanese su (す) is pronouced like "su", hough the "u" isn't pronouced undercertain conditions (almost ever).
The si (し) is pronouced shi (or sh, as circumstances demand).

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hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1736
(11/11/05 6:12 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: a few ragi notes Thanks Sabina, shows how much japanese I know, doesn't it?

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 384
(11/11/05 6:32 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: a few ragi notes We are far past the little I know about Japanese.

I don't feel like I understand everything about the postvocallic consonant situation in Ragi. Maybe there is something like nand'spence suggests. That would explain some things.

Likewise, I don't understand the consonants followed by 'H'. As near as I can tell, the H is practically silent. Must be some distinction that is lost on a native speaker of American.

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1737
(11/14/05 1:40 am)
Reply | Edit New Post direction of this project OK, as I was 'appointed' the liason to nand'Cidjei-ma, I contacter HERSELF and explained the project. I believe that Sharon may have talked to her about this, too. But I got an email back and a green light. I had asked her for any notes on the language she had for the 8th & 9th books in the series. She said there wasn't much in the 8th and she no longer had any linguistic notes worth mentioning from the previous books, move an all. But, that she would save her notes from the Ragi language she planed to put in the 9th book and there seemed to be quite a bit of it coming.

I am excited.

I will write up the section in the 2nd book, p 176, that has the 4 untranslated sentences and propose a translation and ask her if she accepts them, I could use some help on what you think those sentences mean.

some grammar notes:
1. verbs and adjectives match in number.
2. Sentences have an equation of numbers of subject, objects (direct, indirect and of prepostions) placed on the verb and on all nouns in the sentence. All nouns must add up to what is on the verb.
3. honorifics, similar in outcome to the japanese system, but different in style and substance, (low person talking to higher ranking person; equal rank; nearly equal rank, but I am still higher than you; etc) with certain classes, (the aiji, for instance) having 3, or 7 times the 'weight' as other persons in the sentence.

Feel free to add to my list.

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 394
(11/14/05 1:12 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: direction of this project Excellent, excellent, excellent!
Clearly we 'appointed' the right person! ('We'? https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593454.1402-smiley.gif
 )
I'm excited, too.

{Bren} "Aiji-ma, jis asdi parei'manima pag' nand' Stani-captain?"
{Tabini} "Masji sig' triti didamei'shi."
Invader, p. 176
{I am thinking Bren asks, 'Is there anything you want to say to Captain Stani?'
The question on Tabini's mind, and the direction the conversation takes, is how the Treaty affects the Ship. So presumably that is the sense of Tabini's answer, 'Ask whether they are bound by the treaty.'}

{Bren} "Daiti, nadiin tekikin, madighi tritin distitas pas ajiimasisit, das, das, das, magji das."
{Mogari-nai} "Pai sat, paidhi-ma."
Invader, p. 176
{In English, the lines that ought to go here are:
'Begin transmission of the Treaty text.'
'Yes, sir.'
I like the idea that das, das, das, magji das is a 5-digit file number.}

[Bren] "Naighai maighi-shi, Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance."
Invader, p. 212
{This cryptic comment is somehow related to the difference between "urgent meeting" and "pregnant calander", which is what Deana actually said.}

[Jase] "I’ve been practicing. How’s Dai ghiyi-ma, aigi’ta amath-aiji, an Jase Graham?"
[Bren] "Hamatha-aijijin, but that’s real good."
Invader, pp. 363
{On this one, I figure 'ghiyi' is a mispronunciation, since it is the only time the letter 'y' appears in Ragi. Possibly the correct spelling would be ghi'i. I also figure Bren's comment as a correction, so the correct sentance would read:
Dai ghi'i-ma, aigi’ta Hamatha-aijijin, an Jase Graham
something something something Felicitous-Greetings to the aiji, from Jase Graham.}

Another baffling passage:
Next course, the last course: Jase asked one servant for two bowls, baffling the young woman considerably.
"Asso shi madihiin-sa," Bren said quietly. "Mai, nadi."
"Mai, nadi, saijuri." Jase echoed him and made a courteous patch on the utterance, with good grace. …
Inheritor p. 90
{Mai seems to be something of the please/thank you type. Madihiin is of the form of a generic-plural noun, although the jist of this scene is that Jase is trying with limited sucess to get beyond such simple forms. Perhaps -sa is a dual marker. The mysterious word shi appears again. If we take shi as 'truely', we could make Bren's correction into something like
'[one wishes?] truely bowls-two. Thank you, nadi.' }

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 593
(11/14/05 6:48 pm)
Reply New Post re: direction of this project
>1. verbs and adjectives match in number.

if I may ask, oh ye 2nd Intercessor, what do you mean by "match" ?

Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 330
(11/14/05 7:06 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: direction of this project Hang on....so hrhspence you've contacted the Goddess herself and she's going to do what?

Hmmmm and you get to propose a translation eh?

As for ideas on what the sentances mean I'm sure we have ideas already expressed here on this thread, surely you can look back at them or must we resubmit our thoughts?

'shi' is the mystery word, some here think its 'true' I think its a form of 'be' (as in: be, is, are, am, was. etc...).

I feel oddly disquited by this, you will be the filter through which we get this information. And perhaps this is an 'accross the interface' thing but I don't know.....I mean no offence but this feels distinctly dodgy.

hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1740
(11/14/05 9:46 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: direction of this project I'm sorry you feel that way, zen.

I have talked to CJ before about languages, Hani, Kiffish and Ragi. I was asked by people at this site, before Destroyer came out, to work on Ragi and did some work on it.

I was distracted and quit my work on Ragi for nearly 2 years. When I came back, I was pleasantly surprised to see that you have done a great deal in my absence. Since I have come back, I have been asked by several people to resume work on the Ragi project. I quit back then for one additional reason: I was overwhelmed by certain aspects of the language. You have done so much of the work that I am again excited about working on Ragi.

I feel you have reservations about me coming back. I am unsure what feels dodgy about this. Are you feeling that I haven't contacted CJ and am lying about having contacted her? Or are you feeling that I am trying to control this project for what ever reason I might have?

If you wish to contact her yourself, go right ahead. 
CJ@cherryh.com and make sure to put comlink in the message line. I have found her to be a pleasant and kind person who will answer questions you send to her. If you would like to see the message she sent me, I'll send it to your box; just let me know.

the mule
Paidhi-aiji
Posts: 4475
(11/15/05 8:50 am)
Reply
New Post Re: direction of this project Zen,

What misgivings do you have? HRHSpence is a long time member here and his extensive work on Kiffish and Hani are a matter of record see here -and here

As I understand it Spence has sought fresh permission from the Goddess to work on Ragi and I'm sure will act as a focus for all of us here interested in analysing and translating. If anything is published I'm sure that kudos will be shared.

Edited by: the mule at: 11/15/05 8:54 am
hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1742
(11/15/05 11:42 am)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: direction of this project Those two sites have broken links. You can go here to see the discussed works:

strengthofthehills.tripod...lturepage/

Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 595
(11/15/05 7:55 pm)
Reply New Post um, Hrhspence-ji...a clarification
...as I see it...
One suspects there has been a translation error in the English-to-English conversation.


>I was distracted and quit my work on Ragi for nearly 2 years. When I came back, I was pleasantly surprised to see that you have done a great deal in my absence. Since I have come back, I have been asked by several people to resume work on the Ragi project.

to prevent confusion...we did not say "please command efforts of compiling and translating Ragi"....we said "please join the translation team."

(those are not quotes - they are concepts)


I hope that helps.
no slight is intended, nadi.

have some https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif


http://strengthofthehills.tripod.com/hanilanguageandculturepage/   

The date I joined the original board: 12/04/2002
 
     Thread Starter
 

4/21/2020 8:35 pm  #6


Re: Notes on CJ's various languages

Dec 24, 2006#8hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1746
(11/15/05 9:09 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: um, Hrhspence-ji...a clarification

Quote:to prevent confusion...we did not say "please command efforts of compiling and translating Ragi"....we said "please join the translation team.



This is the way I took it, part of the team effort.

Each of us has strengths. I have created Conlangs that have been approved by Nand'Cidjei-ma. It makes sense that I would contact her, again. I have to note that more than one of the Linguists here has considerable talent to analyse the small amount of data avaliable to us: Rodlox and Zen9 in particular.

Were I to create a team on my own, I would ask you two to join. I am happy to have been asked to be on your team.

The problem I had earlier, (when I was running the project all on my own, when I owned the project and answered to no one but Nand'Carolyn) was that it was too large of a project. Seeing the project taking off is very exciting to me.

I see Rodlox and Zen9 doing most of the analysis and showing the rest of us their views on what is seen. I see the rest of us chiping in with ideas. Notice this leaves me in the sidelines. The analysis is the most intensive part. I am happy to watch others carryout what they are happy to accomplish. I tried it on my own 2 years ago and it is much better with more minds crunching the data. I'll just stay on the edge and watch.

What I can do is what I really like better, taking the grammar and the vocabulary and extending them into a whole language. I could have done this on my own. I could rip off the work done here and steam roller over the top of everyone and give it to CJ Cherryh and say it was all my work, with bearly a mention of what you have done. And it sounds like some of you think that is what I am doing.

I propose that it will take less time if we organize this. I am willing to do part of the project. Perhaps Nepenti could take a leading role as she is respected by the whole team.

Edited by: hrhspence at: 11/15/05 9:18 pm
Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 600
(11/15/05 10:44 pm)
Reply New Post an apology to all of the group and...
Please, do not misunderstand.

(reading my post, even I misunderstood)

We welcome your participation in this effort.

It is possible that some of us saw your bold manner, and some of us may've mistaken that for you taking control of the project.

This is, I suspect, not your intent, nor your wish to do so.

I think organization amongst us all may indeed be useful...though, and this is simply a note, not a declaration, some of us early on had thought to compile our notes separately, compiling them later.

I hope that helps in some way.

ps: when I was ready to begin posting Ragi words on my website, it was shown first to nand':cherryh for approval.

nadiin, let us all have some https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif
 together.

hrhspence
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1748
(11/16/05 12:43 am)
Reply | Edit
New Post a return to Ragi? Accepted Rodlox-ji. I just want to see a decent, filled out version of CJ's language. It is a lot easier when we work together.

So, does anyone have a translation of those 4 sentences? I would actually like more than one version when I propose the translations to her. And any questions on grammar. She mentioned something about the kurdi (or murdi) issue. "Probably dilectical" she said, so Zen should be happy that's what he was saying.

Sabina B
Shai-Shan Service Staff
Guild Assassin
Posts: 2565
(11/16/05 8:21 am)
Reply
New Post Re: a return to Ragi? Well, lets try:
{Bren} "Aiji-ma, jis asdi parei'manima pag' nand' Stani-captain?"
{Tabini} "Masji sig' triti didamei'shi."
Invader, p. 176 (Paperback, the pages are different for the hardcover)
"Honored Lord, is there anything in particular you wish to say to Captain Ramirez?" (Translated the aiji-ma too, so maybe we should go even further, "Honored Highlord" as to not to confuse the aiji with the other lords.
"We expect acceptance of the entire Treaty." (The royal "we", otherwise I'd go for "I". Btw, I think the ending "shi" is due to felicity reasons, otherwise there would be four words and eight syllables in the sentences.)

{Bren} "Daiti, nadiin tekikin, madighi tritin distitas pas ajiimasisit, das, das, das, magji das."
{Mogari-nai} "Pai sat, paidhi-ma."
Invader, p. 176 (Paperback)
"Attention, Misters/Sirs Technicans, please transmit to them the Treaty files I send you." (I still think the "das" sequence is another instance of making the sentences felicitous.)
"At once, Honored Interpreter."

[Bren] "Naighai maighi-shi, Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in a
Invader, p. 212 (Paperback)
"Urgent meeting, Miss Deana." (Bren gives us the translation.)
I give up on that one, I don't know, maybe at another time, but I think th eproblem lays in the fact that "meeting" and "calendar" are the same word (probably "Naighai") changing meaning according to context, with calendar probably being the base meaning, therefore, when the set phrase for "urgent meeting" was scrambled, it defaulted back to calendar since "pregnant" usually can't be used with the word. And "maighi" conveys a sense of sonn/close, the ending "shi" turning "Naighai" into meeting, while another ending would have turn it into "pregnant" (close to birth, soon to be born)

I agree on the other example.

Next course, the last course: Jase asked one servant for two bowls, baffling the young woman considerably.
"Asso shi madihiin-sa," Bren said quietly. "Mai, nadi."
"Mai, nadi, saijuri." Jase echoed him and made a courteous patch on the utterance, with good grace.
Inheritor p. 90
The first is a conditional request and irregular courtesy plurals, Bren says so later on the same page.
The problem is, we don't know what Jase wanted to ask, therfore we don't know what Bren's utterance means. Did Jase want another bowl, or did he want nothing at all, or did he want something entirely different?
But the difference between Jase's sentence (we don't know) and Bren's correction is clearly the "shi" again. (Damnable "shi" seems to be entirely to versatile.)
"Mai, nadi, saijuri." -> "Please, Miss, forgive me."

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Edited by: Sabina B at: 11/16/05 8:23 am
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 402
(11/16/05 10:42 am)
Reply
New Post Re: a return to Ragi I see we are back to business again. Good!

Sabina proposes what I think is the third interpretation for the mystery word 'shi'! (Unless I lost count -- That would never do!) Maybe when we understand that word, the rest of the language will fall into place. :lol

Which leads to phoneme/alphabet questions:
How is 'shi' pronounced? (Or, in general, what about those consonant + H combinations, especially at the beginning of a word?)

What sound does 'C' represent? (Nand'Spence writes 'Nand'Cidjei-ma', which suggests he (like me) tends to read it like in English: 'K' before A, O, U; 'S' before E or I. But is this true in Ragi?)

Is there still something nand'Spence was trying to volunteer me for? Or is that past now?

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 1749
(11/16/05 1:40 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: a return to Ragi I know that Nand'Cidjei-ma speaks French and Latin enough to be influenced by their pronunciation of the C. And as I teach French for a living, I am influenced by it as well. The other possibility is the Celtic aproach: use a C for a K sound, in which case I should spell it Nand'Sidjei-ma, which I will do from now on, to avoid confusion.

So, the questions I will pose are:

1, how is C pronounced? French style or Celtic [with more of an explanation and with examples]

2, what is the translation of shi? 1, 2, or 3, [with the examples from this list.]

3, which translations of the following sentences [from Invader, p. 176 (Paperback)] are closest to your original intent?

This will be a fairly long letter, is there anything else that I should put in the letter?

Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 330
(11/16/05 7:45 pm)
Reply New Post Ragi First off I'm a dabbler not an expert, but my dabblings lead me to realise just what a monumental task constructing any language is.

Second I cannot explain in words what is just a feeling. But I'm reasured by mule's words.

Quote:We welcome your participation in this effort

we do indeed, evey voice, every perspective is of value.

Quote:It is possible that some of us saw your bold manner, and some of us may've mistaken that for you taking control of the project.


This is indeed the more vocalisable part of my concerns.

Please try not to take offense at my words, they are inexact expressions of feelings and words can but rarely quite reach to describe a feeling at the best of times.

Quote:This is the way I took it, part of the team effort.


Understood.
I stand ready and willing to work with you on this, I assume we are to work here.

Alas at the mo' I have not time and no idea what next to say. I'd have to re-read what I've already said on this thread just to put myself in the right state of mind. Tomorrow I might have that time.

Essentialy hrhspence your questions seem the right ones for now.

1 a further definition of pronounciations
2 the meaning of a often occuring word 'shi'
3 an assement of which attempt at translation is closest to her orriginal meaning.

I must say I'd be rather disappointed if it turned out 'C' is said like the French.

Is there anything else....well you can give our regards to the Goddess

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 405
(11/16/05 9:02 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: Ragi I'm sure we will all think of more questions later! That looks like a good list for now.

Quote:Nand'Sidjei-ma

'Cidjei' did look cooler. But I suppose the new spelling will have to do until we know how to pronounce 'C'.

I will have to find a letter for 'C' in any case, because it appears in names. I already assigned the letter for C to Ch. Oops. Well, as far as I know, Asicho and I are the only ones who ever use the font, so it is still easy enough to rearrange things.

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Zen9
Bujavid Security
Posts: 331
(11/17/05 5:22 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Ragi How ironic, convergence in action!

You see 'C' has indeed been used to transcribe both the sound 'k', 's' and the sounds 'ch' and 'kh'.
In Old English for one they used 'c' and 'cc', and even 'sc' for 'sh'. SO you had 'fisc' for 'fish', 'ric' for 'rich' etc....

Also 'g' was used for the sounds 'g', 'y', 'gh' and in endings 'i'.

the mule
Paidhi-aiji
Posts: 4483
(11/17/05 9:22 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Ragi Certainly, nadi, some interpretations of the linguistic knot of Shi will be most welcome. https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593452.8325-smiley.gif


I have generally taken C as a hard celtic CH up 'til now, thus reading Cenedi as Ken'dy

Edited by: the mule at: 11/17/05 9:26 am
Felicitous Sk8er
Bergid Mountaineering Association
Posts: 569
(11/17/05 11:05 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter

New Post Re: Ragi A quick note, for those who may not have discovered it yet: soundfiles on Shejidan's website to listen to Herself's own pronunciations:

The sound files are buried deep in Haut's (hysterically funny!!) MidSouthCon report:

www.shejidan.com/features...unday.html

Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 608
(11/18/05 12:10 am)
Reply New Post Re: the Sound Files
Many thanks, Sk8er, for posting the sound file.


(a side note: listening to the entry "Jago," I never thought someone such as Herself had a milder form of something that I always have had: I noted the use of "um" and clipping the end off a few words. I say this because I am startled. I still have nothing but respect for Herself)

(that Herself would use "um" in a sentance, and pausing in the midst of a thought...it reinforces that fact that she is human (and not simply a Divinity)....though her humanity was always evident in her writing)

oh bother...I'm just digging myself in deeper, aren't I? or is my thought getting across?
*hiding myself*

shlinas
Veteran Bujavid Security
Posts: 1483
(11/18/05 12:49 am)
Reply New Post Re: the Sound Files So, I had to jump on here and add how cool I thought those sound files were. It was interesting to see which names I had gotten right and which not (Cenedi was one of the latter...*sigh*)

I'm amazed at you guys working on this language. I LOVE all things Atevi, however, I wouldn't make it long as a paidhi. What would the Atevi do with an individual such as myself who has numerical dyslexia (or discalcula for the proper term, as *numerical dyslexia* is rather an oxymoron)?

I am in awe of people who can speak in numbers...

(Sorry, I like to lurk in this thread, but feel like I can offer very little in posting. I just had to pose that question. Would they view me as some few the mentally handicapped?)

https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif


Edited by: shlinas at: 11/18/05 12:50 am
Felicitous Sk8er
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(11/18/05 12:54 am)
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ezSupporter

New Post Re: Re: the Sound Files Shlinas wonders:

Quote:What would the Atevi do with an individual such as myself who has numerical dyslexia


I know exactly what would happen: you would be known as "CJ Cherryh", who specializes in "Tau Cetian math", & needs Jane Fancher to keep her books straight for her!! Because :cherryh sure can't do it Herself!! https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593473.5019-smiley.gif
in

Felicitous Sk8er
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(11/18/05 1:01 am)
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ezSupporter

New Post Re: Re: the Sound Files Rodlox notes:

Quote:that Herself would use "um" in a sentence, and pausing in the midst of a thought


Carolyn speaks very deliberately, with much thought. Even casual conversations are well-thought out & phrased for maximum impact. She is a storyteller not only through the written word, but via spoken language. Herself is a master of punchlines, phrasing thoughts for maximum impact, and integrating complex concepts into her conversations. But, I think you all know this already!

shlinas
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(11/18/05 1:36 am)
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New Post Re: Re: the Sound Files

Quote:you would be known as "CJ Cherryh", who specializes in "Tau Cetian math", & needs Jane Fancher to keep her books straight for her!!



https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593473.5019-smiley.gif
in https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593473.5019-smiley.gif
in https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593473.5019-smiley.gif
in https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593473.5019-smiley.gif
in

Oh, that makes me feel so much better!

~Shlinas~
Rodlox
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(11/18/05 2:40 am)
Reply New Post Re: Re: the Sound Files
I have no doubt that She speaks deliberately -- a person of Her high intellect naturally would.

I apologize...in my startlement, I spoke poorly.

if you like, I will delete my earlier post.

Felicitous Sk8er
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ezSupporter

New Post Re: Re: the Sound Files No, no, no! Rodlox-ji! I think something is getting lost in the interface here! I'm certain I understand you better than you are worried about. Your post is fine! It is accurate! It is interesting! Please do not delete it!! I LOVE your post, :love especially your comment about Her humanity!! It is an incredible, touching compliment about the person I know & love!!

Rodlox
Senior Bujavid Security
Posts: 610
(11/18/05 3:17 am)
Reply New Post Oh.
Oh....that dratted interface again. (or my own sheep-brain)
I swear, a Kea's smarter than me.

I fully do mean what I said about Her humanity. Rest assured of that.

So...my post is interesting, eh? Thanks...I am certain of it.

Nice to know you understand me...seems to be better than I know myself.

(and no, in case you were worried, I wasn't putting the moves on you)

have nice days, delightful birthday https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593466.7328-smiley.gif
 , and wonderfully tasty https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif
 !

Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 415
(11/18/05 10:23 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Sound Files Thank you for finding those sound files!

So some of the names don't follow exactly the Pronunciation Guide - Banichi with accent on first syllable, Algini with soft G. Sometimes proper names are like that.

I hope it doesn't happen much with ordinary words.


http://strengthofthehills.tripod.com/hanilanguageandculturepage/   

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4/21/2020 8:37 pm  #7


Re: Notes on CJ's various languages

Dec 24, 2006#9hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 1754
(11/18/05 2:04 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: Sound Files Well the sound files conclusively answer the pronunciation question of the C. It looks like the Celtic camp wins hands down.

Nand'Sidjei-Ma is the spelling I will use then.

I am still writing up the letter to Herself as I had to print up 107 pages of the first 8 "pages" of this thread. I am still analysing the work done by you linguists, trying to find all meanings of 'Shi.' I am only able to find Nepenti's and Sabina's full translations of the sentences from Invader p. 176.

I have noticed a few scattered leads to some of the sentences, but not all of them. (If you'd like your version included please add them here.)



Nepenti
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New Post Re: Sound Files 107 pages! Do we really talk that much? https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593455.3111-smiley.gif


____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Rodlox
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(11/18/05 3:47 pm)
Reply New Post For shame, Nepenti-ji! https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593494.8662-smiley.gif

...that tis only a fraction of the books & the series!

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hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 1755
(11/18/05 4:28 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post letter to Nand'Sidjei-Ma Nand’Sidjei-Ma :

Yeah, that’s how I refer to you as in the Shejidan threads when I post. ;-) That spelling actually kicked off a small controversy. I had originally spelled it with a C, using the French influenced spelling. But then the “Celtic Camp,” who always pronounce C as a K, showed a series of sound files of your voice pronouncing names from a con you’d attended in ’03 and I changed the spelling.

So my first question: #1 Is there a difference between a C and a K in Ragi, or are they just random variations in the transcription?


#2. What the heck does the word shi mean? One poster on Shejidan says it is a word that shows increase in politeness, another says it is used to keep the number of words in an utterance felicitous, some say it means “yes” others that it means “I am.” If you could tell us what that word means, we’d have a bit less stress! ;-)

“Shi, Paidhi, Noka ais-ji?” are you reliable, translator-mediator?

“Shi!” I am

And do we see it again as "shi'ra"? in "Na dei shi'ra ma'anto paidhi, nadi?" Are you not one of the paidhiin, sir? Am I mistaken?

The biggest hurtle to translating and expanding the Ragi language has been that pesky word: shi. Does it have more than one meaning?



#3 We have a few sentences that don’t have translations. We submit them to you with our attempts at translation and ask you if we’re close. If it’s not too much, could you look through the translations and point out directions?

First from Nepenti:

{Bren} "Aiji-ma, jis asdi parei'manima pag' nand' Stani-captain?"
{Tabini} "Masji sig' triti didamei'shi."
Invader, p. 176
{I am thinking Bren asks, 'Is there anything you want to say to Captain Stani?'
The question on Tabini's mind, and the direction the conversation takes, is how the Treaty affects the Ship. So presumably that is the sense of Tabini's answer, 'Ask whether they are bound by the treaty.'}

{Bren} "Daiti, nadiin tekikin, madighi tritin distitas pas ajiimasisit, das, das, das, magji das."
{Mogari-nai} "Pai sat, paidhi-ma."
Invader, p. 176
{In English, the lines that ought to go here are:
'Begin transmission of the Treaty text.'
'Yes, sir.'
I like the idea that das, das, das, magji das is a 5-digit file number.}

[Bren] "Naighai maighi-shi, Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance."
Invader, p. 212
{This cryptic comment is somehow related to the difference between "urgent meeting" and "pregnant calendar", which is what Deana actually said.}

[Jase] "I’ve been practicing. How’s Dai ghiyi-ma, aigi’ta amath-aiji, an Jase Graham?"
[Bren] "Hamatha-aijijin, but that’s real good."
Invader, pp. 363
{On this one, I figure 'ghiyi' is a mispronunciation, since it is the only time the letter 'y' appears in Ragi. Possibly the correct spelling would be ghi'i. I also figure Bren's comment as a correction, so the correct sentence would read:
Dai ghi'i-ma, aigi’ta Hamatha-aijijin, an Jase Graham
something something something Felicitous-Greetings to the aiji, from Jase Graham.}

Another baffling passage:
Next course, the last course: Jase asked one servant for two bowls, baffling the young woman considerably.
"Asso shi madihiin-sa," Bren said quietly. "Mai, nadi."
"Mai, nadi, saijuri." Jase echoed him and made a courteous patch on the utterance, with good grace. …
Inheritor p. 90
{Mai seems to be something of the please/thank you type. Madihiin is of the form of a generic-plural noun, although the jist of this scene is that Jase is trying with limited sucess to get beyond such simple forms. Perhaps -sa is a dual marker. The mysterious word shi appears again. If we take shi as 'truely', we could make Bren's correction into something like
'[one wishes?] truely bowls-two. Thank you, nadi.' }
____________________________

now from Sabina:
Well, lets try:
{Bren} "Aiji-ma, jis asdi parei'manima pag' nand' Stani-captain?"
{Tabini} "Masji sig' triti didamei'shi."
Invader, p. 176 (Paperback, the pages are different for the hardcover)
"Honored Lord, is there anything in particular you wish to say to Captain Ramirez?" (Translated the aiji-ma too, so maybe we should go even further, "Honored Highlord" as to not to confuse the aiji with the other lords.
"We expect acceptance of the entire Treaty." (The royal "we", otherwise I'd go for "I". Btw, I think the ending "shi" is due to felicity reasons, otherwise there would be four words and eight syllables in the sentences.)

{Bren} "Daiti, nadiin tekikin, madighi tritin distitas pas ajiimasisit, das, das, das, magji das."
{Mogari-nai} "Pai sat, paidhi-ma."
Invader, p. 176 (Paperback)
"Attention, Misters/Sirs Technicans, please transmit to them the Treaty files I send you." (I still think the "das" sequence is another instance of making the sentences felicitous.)
"At once, Honored Interpreter."

[Bren] "Naighai maighi-shi, Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in a
Invader, p. 212 (Paperback)
"Urgent meeting, Miss Deana." (Bren gives us the translation.)
I give up on that one, I don't know, maybe at another time, but I think the problem lays in the fact that "meeting" and "calendar" are the same word (probably "Naighai") changing meaning according to context, with calendar probably being the base meaning, therefore, when the set phrase for "urgent meeting" was scrambled, it defaulted back to calendar since "pregnant" usually can't be used with the word. And "maighi" conveys a sense of sonn/close, the ending "shi" turning "Naighai" into meeting, while another ending would have turn it into "pregnant" (close to birth, soon to be born)

I agree on the other example.

Next course, the last course: Jase asked one servant for two bowls, baffling the young woman considerably.
"Asso shi madihiin-sa," Bren said quietly. "Mai, nadi."
"Mai, nadi, saijuri." Jase echoed him and made a courteous patch on the utterance, with good grace.
Inheritor p. 90
The first is a conditional request and irregular courtesy plurals, Bren says so later on the same page.
The problem is, we don't know what Jase wanted to ask, therefore we don't know what Bren's utterance means. Did Jase want another bowl, or did he want nothing at all, or did he want something entirely different?
But the difference between Jase's sentence (we don't know) and Bren's correction is clearly the "shi" again. (Damnable "shi" seems to be entirely too versatile.)
"Mai, nadi, saijuri." -> "Please, Miss, forgive me."





Sorry the letter is so long. But, this is where we are on our path toward filling out Ragi. We are having a very good time discussing your creation and hope to have more to show later,

Again, Thanks,

Spence-ji

Vetch
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(11/18/05 4:31 pm)
Reply
New Post sound files At last I got to the soundfiles (didn't work this afternoon, but does tonight). Coolness!
One can tell the Latin basics in the pronounciation - and I'm glad, because it's the way I read the names anyway (being German) - nice! :flower

(btw: I just printed the birthday-thread: 4 pages...)

edit: oops, cross posting - sorry for interrupting :flower )

Edited by: Vetch at: 11/18/05 4:33 pm
Zen9
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(11/18/05 6:49 pm)
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New Post Re: sound files Oh my cut and paste time perhaps?

The simplified musings of Zen9 on the Ragi language.

'y' would seem necessary to a word like "ghiyi-ma", Presumably said 'ghi-yi-ma'. Notice the ending '-ma'.

Can we deconstruct this sentence?

Dai ghiyi-ma, aigi’ta amath-aiji, an Jase Graham

'amath-aiji' does that relate to the childerens language? Maybe 'Amath' is 'speach' and "Amathai'in", being perhaps a diminutive?

Is'nt '-ma' an ending implying a certain formality?
---

The responce is 'Hamatha-aijijin' Which seems to relate to its use in the greating 'Hamatha ta resa Tatiseigi dathasa'. Could it mean 'welcome' or maybe 'good'?

I'm sure "Hamatha" and "Amatha" are different words.

Hamatha in use in the sentence 'Hamatha ta resa Tatiseigi dathasa' does not have to mean 'welcome', because we don't know the exact nature of the word order (or I've forgotten if its mentioned). So it could be translated say (and this is just guesswork mind) "good your arrival Tatiseigi greatings".


Hmmmm mind on a little roll here....
Note something here!
"Shi, paidhi, noka ais-ji?" Are you reliable, translator-mediator?
"Shi!" I am.
So we know "Shi" means 'I am' but what is its exact meaning in the first sentence? Could be instead a form of "yes" or "are" the latter making it rather important. But the problem is that they may be different words but look the same under certain conditions!

And do we see it again as "shi'ra"? in "Na dei shi'ra ma'anto paidhi, nadi?" Are you not one of the paidhiin, sir? Am I mistaken?
---

See we have a ending here for "nadiin" in "Nadiin-sai" in the sentence "Nadiin-sai, machi arai'si na djima sa dimajin tasu." - Keep playing until further notice. (Probably the Nadiin were not mentioned in the translation).

"ghidari'sai uchi'sa-ma " the staff are all rain clouds
"jidari'sai uchi'sa-ma " the staff may be offended?

So we can see "ghidari'sai" is 'rainclouds' and "jidari'sai" is 'offended'. The 'sai part being perhaps an case ending?
We can also deduce that "uchi'sa-ma" contains the word 'staff', with a clear ending "-ma" not necessarily anthing to do with the ending "-ma" in "aiji-ma".

'Get' irregular indivisbles
shikira
makkiura
shis'urna

Bren says "any three quarters of any verb in the -irei class: they rhyme with the -ra plurals, at least in the past tenses"

note the stress in the correction "asso shi madihiin-sa" in how to ask for two bowles. Is this the same "shi" we see elsewhere?

We have Bren scolding Deana: “Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”
Hmmm thats not a literal translation, since there are only two words "naighai" and "maighi-shi", where "-shi" is an ending not a seperate word.
might this not be translated as "volcabulary(abrupt form?) meeting(implied urgency), Deana dear"

........

“Man'china aijiia nai'am,” -- I'm the aiji's associate, foremost.

If "nai'am" is 'I am' and "aijiia" is "aiji's" then the ending on "man'chi" or "na" would suggest the 'foremost' part assuming its not part of the word "nai'am".
Interesting to see the wordorder as "associate(foremost?) aiji's I am".

Question
"Shi paidhi noka ais-ji?"

'be'(unknown form) translater-mediator reliable ?(interagotive)-dear?

Answer
"Shi"

'be'

hmmm you might be right on “Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji. Urgent meeting. Prepare your damn vocabulary in advance.”
Making
“Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji" - meeting urgent Deana-dear
Or perhaps the ending '-shi' is a negative making it
- "meeting calender-not Deana-dear." Which would explain the stress on the ending!

I'm pretty sure "-shi", is not "Shi".

"Sha nauru shina" I'll contact you. {Precursor p. 133 paperback}

Interesting one that....could 'Sha' be a declination of 'Shi'?
If so it might suggest 'shina' is also. Though as far as I'm going on 'Shi' being a form of 'be' they might not.....hmmmmm......could it be "be(uknown form) contact you"

"Hold on. Jai! Atira'na. Don't let go." Precursor p. 137 paperback}

Much more difficult. "Jai!" is clearly the imperative, perhaps it is a call to attention?

“Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji.
Its clear to me that "-shi" is an ending, like '-eth', '-est', '-ed' where in English and still '-s', '-ing' and '-y' is.


"Daiti, nadiin tekikin, madighi tritin distitas pas aijimaisit, das, das, das, magji das. "

Hmmm we can swap the words we know.........
Daiti, sir's technician(s?), madighi treaty distitas pas aijimaisit, das, das, das, magji das.

Leaving us with "Daiti", "madigi", "distitas", "pas", "das", "magji" and a form of "aiji" in "aijimaisit"

"Naighai maighi-shi,Deana-ji" take a look at the words "naighai" and "maighi" (sans the ending "-shi"), is'nt is possible that Deana has confused "maighi" with "naighai" and that Bren is correcting here?
Perhaps she said "maighai" which might be taken as some form of "maighi"?

“Masji sig' triti didamei'shi.”
But can we say 'shi in didamei'shi is actualy a ending at all? Maybe its just part of the word and we're 'looking for faces in the clouds', were we see variants of "shi" whenever the three letters are arranged so.

"Asso shi madihiin-sa" Is how Bren corrects Jase in how to ask for two bowles.
Note: I think we can see a plural here, "madihiin-sa" contains "madihi" and the "in" plural with a further ending "-sa". My take is that is the word for "bowles" and perticularly two bowles. A plural and then a qualifier making it literaly translate as "bowles-two".
We can see "shi" there though what its exact meaning is harder to say. How that can be "true" is difficult to comprehend for me, that it might be a form of 'be' is still hard but not impossible.

"Asso" may be the request by this analysis.

The stress would seem to be the "shi" suggesting that, that is the principal correction.

Felicitous Sk8er
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(11/18/05 8:36 pm)
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ezSupporter

New Post Re: sound files Nadiin -- you are all amazing! One would have neither the patience nor the fortitude to tackle the task you have already made great gains on. <bows> Please have some https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif
 so you can keep up your strength. And of course, for further sustenence, little iced mint cookies.

hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 1842
(12/11/05 8:54 pm)
Reply | Edit New Post erm, excuse me . . . Sharon,

any idea of Herself has looked at the huge email that I sent her? It's been over 3 weeks and she usually answers before that long. I fear that she is busy with stuff and may have forgotten about it.

Felicitous Sk8er
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(12/11/05 9:30 pm)
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ezSupporter

New Post Re: erm, excuse me . . . Spence-ji--
I have no idea. She hasn't mentioned it. I'll try to think to ask when we see each other Tuesday.

hrhspence
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(12/11/05 10:27 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: erm, excuse me . . . Yeah, but I don't want to be a pest about it.

Rodlox
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Reply New Post Re: erm, excuse me . . .
then be patient.
https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593455.1633-smiley.gif
 of https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593453.0232-smiley.gif
 .

Nepenti
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(1/20/06 8:33 pm)
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New Post Re: Ragi language Meanwhile, has any one been keeping a list of Ragi words that get confused, that are known to sound similar? Which words Deana, or Jase, get mixed up?

I realize belatedly that I haven't been keeping such a list.

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Asicho
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New Post Re: Ragi language I somehow have missed the last five pages of this thread, despite frequenting the next thread over (Ragi with the Medieval Mongolian Fonts). I guess I wandered out about the time Nepenti noticed the "elephant in the office" and hadn't realized the discussion had started up again! *hides head under pillow*

All I can say is WOW, I'm stunned with all the work you've done in the last few pages. https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593494.8662-smiley.gif
 I do hope we hear back from nand'CJ, but in any case think the questions nand'Spence came up with to ask her are a good summary of what we want to know at the moment--or at least what I want to know! I'm glad "shi" (that pesky, intriguing word!) got mentioned to Her, among other things.

Nadiin, one will lurk and contribute if one thinks one has something useful to add, but mostly one has the urge to go learn a lot more linguistics just to keep up with the rest of you. ;)

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 & :salad !

"'God' is 'tears'?"
"Among other elusive concepts, Jago-ji."
hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 1944
(1/20/06 11:14 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: Ragi language Still no answer, though I have contacted her 3 times. I assume with rusty con, and other distractions, Nand'Sidjei-Ma is rather busy.

Asicho
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(1/20/06 11:18 pm)
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New Post Re: Ragi language Yes, I suppose she would be, so I suppose one must exercise one's patience. ("Patience, and I want it now!")

Were there other things we were going to do whilst waiting? Trying to think if there's anything I can help with.

"'God' is 'tears'?"
"Among other elusive concepts, Jago-ji."
hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
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(1/21/06 12:15 am)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: Ragi language Ok, check out the new Avvie!

Asicho
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New Post Re: Ragi language Oooooooh! :D

"'God' is 'tears'?"
"Among other elusive concepts, Jago-ji."
Asicho
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New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi Nadiin, one is re-reading Invader for linguistic notes (and, of course, the story), and stumbled upon something interesting. In the course of wondering if atevi names were gender-specific, I wondered if there were any two atevi characters that we'd met who had the same name. Lo and behold, on page 44 (Invader, DAW paperback), one reads:

QuoteBren has just asked if there are negotiations in progress between Tabini and Deana Hanks.)

"With the likes of Taigi and Naijo. With every damned potential conspirator in the Association--possibly. With me--no."



You may remember (I checked to make sure) that one of Bren's servants before he was whisked off to Malguri was named Taigi. Of course it's possible that Deana, who stayed in Bren's old garden apartment, had some of the same servants as he had had. But in the context, it really sounds to me like Tabini is talking about one of the lords of the tashrid or hasdrawad, like Geigi.

So I think we have our first case of two atevi with the same name. (Which of course is probably common--how many Brens and Tobys must there be on Mospheira?--but very interesting to me, in some strange way.)

(And, back to the gender of names thing, now I want to know if you could have an atevi man and an atevi woman named the same thing, or if that's stretching it.)

"'God' is 'tears'?"
"Among other elusive concepts, Jago-ji."
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 766
(1/24/06 8:21 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi I made a list of Atevi Names a while back, noting both gender and ethnicity. I didn't see strong patterns. Names ending in -o or in a consonant are mostly (but not always) female names.

I've always wondered whether Tano was named after his grandmother or something, and whether his associates think it is a strange name.

____________________________
This then is a good darkness and a rich naught, for it is a nighing of the true day.
Asicho
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(1/26/06 11:49 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi The person who got me into Foreigner in the first place piqued my interest when she said that one of the things she loved about the series is that you can't tell, really, what someone's gender is before you meet them, just based on the name. And that that reflects the equality of the sexes in atevi life.

But I think it would be cool if Tano *was* named for his grandmother or something. Not because he's particularly feminine, but because it would be such a nice alien thing to do compared to the culture I live in.

(Also, 'Penti-ji, I was looking for that list of names to practice calligraphy on...thanks.)

"'God' is 'tears'?"
"Among other elusive concepts, Jago-ji."
Edited by: Asicho at: 1/26/06 11:50 pm


http://strengthofthehills.tripod.com/hanilanguageandculturepage/   

The date I joined the original board: 12/04/2002
 
     Thread Starter
 

4/21/2020 8:40 pm  #8


Re: Notes on CJ's various languages

Dec 24, 2006#10Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 801
(1/27/06 7:14 am)
Reply
New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi Well, yes, it is also possible that Tano was named for his grandmother, and nobody thinks that unusual. So different from this culture.

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And after the Dark, o brothers, o sisters,
Come we home.
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Reply New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi
there's a bunch of languages here on Earth where the names are gender-neutral.

more than just the Sam & Pat of English.

Nepenti
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New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi Why not? But English is not one of those cultures.

I just recently learned that 'Lupe' (short for "Guadalupe') could also be a boy's name in Spanish. But the guy sounded a little defensive about it, so maybe it isn't common as a boy's name. Or maybe he was just tired of Anglos asking stupid questions. ;)

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New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi An odd, perhaps recent social-nomenclature facet of English, and esp. U.A. English, is that once a formerly masculine name becomes popular as a feminine name, it becomes suspect as a masculine name.

Cf. Sidney/Sydney, Leslie, Morgan, Drew, Darcy, Robin, Hillary, Vivian, Ashley, Beverly

On the other hand, I have heard that "Julian" and "Christian" used to be feminine names.

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Neco the Nightwraith
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New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi I was reading the site recently and noticed that the definitions of the two mentioned planets 'Esili' and 'Maudette' were the same.

I can't remember now, so maybe someone can clear this up:

Are they the same planet? Because I think (but can't be sure) that two seperate planets were mentioned, the second from the sun and the next one further out (I'm assuming the fourth).

Someone straighten me out if I'm wrong.





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Asicho
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New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi I would have to check, but yeah, I do think there were two planets mentioned besides the atevi homeworld. They reminded me of Venus and Mars.

However, I think Maudette/Maudit* and Esili are the same planet (the Mars-equivalent). One's the Mosphei' name and one the Ragi, one believes. Could be wrong...

*(Two different spellings used, either because of lack of proofreading or because the name changed with time.)

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Edited by: Asicho at: 2/10/06 1:28 am
shlinas
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New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi

Quote:One's the Mosphei' name and one the Ragi, one believes.



Esili does sound like a Ragi name. Have you noticed that they all end in vowels? Mostly -i or -o (although, Bindanda is a nice example of the exception to that rule). The few names that don't that I can think of are places (ex. Taiben). I can't help but think that "Bren" must be such a foreign sounding name to them!

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Nepenti
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New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi I can't help thinking the "BR" at the beginning is hard to pronounce, too.

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New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi Yeah, they don't seem to have very many two-consonant clusters. I remember they had a hard time pronouncing the name "Yolanda", though they did call her both "'Landa-ji" and "Mercheson-paidhi". So maybe the reason that was hard to pronounce was the initial "Y" which I don't recall encountering much in Ragi. Nobody *mentions* "Bren" being hard to say, but, then, they probably wouldn't.

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Nepenti
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New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi The only time I remember seeing "Y" in Ragi is in one of Jase's earliest attempts at the language (and therefore possibly not correct pronunciation). So I have "Y" listed as a 'foreign' letter.

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freekdragon
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New Post Re: Taigi vs Taigi Was Bren's name perhaps a shortened version of something longer that the atevi found hard or annoying to pronounce, thus resulting in "Bren"?

Maybe 'Brendan' or 'Brennan'? (I can't think of other versions of the name at the moment, but those were the first two to come to mind).





I have fallen hopelessly in love with C J Cherryh's character Bren Cameron from the "Foreigner" series. That's where my handle comes from. . .the "Paidhi" does it for me.

-Unknown

freekdragon
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I was looking at the names list, and I know for sure from conversation that 'Casirnabri' and 'Gesirimu' were female, and 'Marin' was male.

oops, sorry for the double post. *headdesk*





I have fallen hopelessly in love with C J Cherryh's character Bren Cameron from the "Foreigner" series. That's where my handle comes from. . .the "Paidhi" does it for me.

-Unknown

Edited by: freekdragon at: 2/14/06 9:10 am
Rodlox
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Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage
double-posts are fine.


-Rodlox, who really needs to get back to work on the site.

freekdragon
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Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage 'ami' means 'mama'. It's from Pretender. I can't remember the page number. I'll try to find it. It was spoken by Cajeiri.



Edited by: freekdragon at: 3/13/06 7:22 pm
Sabina B
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage "Where is ami?" Cajeiri
Bren's thought 'Mama, that was.', p.228

You know, in German the most dimunitive version of mother (used by the youngest children) is "Mami".

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hrhspence
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(3/13/06 10:15 pm)
Reply | Edit
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage That sounds like the english mommy and take the m off the front and you'd get ami.

I do wish Nand'Sidjei-ma would answer our three questions, then we could move on with our Ragi project.

hrhspence
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

OK, I have been working on the script for written Hani and I think that is a good place to start. That is the word 'Rhaurr' which is a hani masculine name.

Zen9
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I think people should'nt get hung on the letter 'Y' and its use or not. Atevi as we see it is transcribed into the approximate sounds the English alphabet can handle.
I see no reason for Atevi not to have the sound 'Y' represents.
Our exposure to the language is limited and its entirely possible the sound is not used much, while others are clearly used a lot.

Felicitous Sk8er
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ezSupporter

New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote:I do wish Nand'Sidjei-ma would answer our three questions, then we could move on with our Ragi project.


Spence-ji, why don't you email her again? One has mentioned it several times now & hates to bring it up again. Please be sure you put COMLINK or Ragi Project or something very obviously not :spam into your header so it doesn't get trashed without being opened. Also send a copy to fancher*at*cherryh*dot*com to increase your odds of attention being paid to it.

Sabina B
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage 'Spence, that Hani looks great and very haniish, with the slashes and dots.

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4/21/2020 8:48 pm  #9


Re: Notes on CJ's various languages

Dec 24, 2006#11hrhspence
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(3/14/06 1:26 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Thanks Sabina-ji.

I figured that since they have claws, they would use them instead of most of the tools we humans have had to make. I also figured that clawing trees in various patterns would preceed writing as a means to mark territory. (better than using urine, like modern cats)

freekdragon
Atevi Citizen
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(3/14/06 3:24 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage But the hani aren't cats, so that's not a fair comparison.

But I think it'd be cool if you could make that a comp font.

Another mentioning:

Drisi-Edi, page 43, Pretender

Rejeiri's mothers heritage, same 'ethinicity'(?) as Lord Geigi.



hrhspence
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(3/14/06 4:54 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I was using cats in the broadest possible terms, including lions, tigers, pumas and house cats. Much like we could compare ourselves to the rest of the primates.

Nepenti
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(3/14/06 6:26 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage The hani script is lovely! You want to put it in line next to Stsho?

I think it makes perfect sense that hani script would originate from scratch marks.

In Pretender, I notice an atevi name spelled with "Y", suggesting that is a letter occassionally occurring in atevi words.

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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Tomorrow I may have hands on Pretender, so will keep an eye out for that name with a Y in it (as well as other things, of course!).

Spence, I LOVE the hani font! I hadn't realized that's what Akify and Rhaurr's sig lines were at the Chanur RPG board, but they are really very awesome. One more vote for more development of that as you find the time & inclination!

"For me the purest and truest art in the world is science fiction."
--CJ Cherryh, Visible Light
Neco the Nightwraith
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Yes! That is the coolest font! It reminds me of arabic. Sort of.

Please, feel free to develope it further!

ie

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hrhspence
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(3/17/06 11:45 am)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage This weekend I should have the hani font ready to down load. But I am sure that it won't be ready for typing in it. It will be a cut and past affair. There are problems with overlap of letters, that the hani prefer, that our keyboards will have a difficult time handling.

I did rewrite nand'Sidjei-aiji about the ragi questions we had, but haven't had a response yet.

hrhspence
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(3/22/06 7:30 pm)
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ok here it is. Cut and paste. Start in the upper right hand corner and over lap them downward. Then start the next row just to the left and continue.

The flat starting points of a previous letter must be above the starting point of a succeding letter, but the pointy parts can overlap.


I have been reading CJ's blog:

Quote:Sharon's practicing hard for adult Nationals. We'd wanted to go, but there's no way we're ready to compete, and we're just too snowed with work at the moment to be able to take the time off. We've got Westercon coming up: we have to be there---our publisher is going to be there, and it's a rare chance to sit and chat. So that's a must-do. We're just scrambling constantly to make up for time lost.



And I think an answer to our atevi questions will not be forthcoming or will be very late in arrival. What do you co-workers on the project think we should do?

Nepenti
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(3/22/06 7:54 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage One suspects the questions are more pressing to us than they are to Her.

Is there any way we can continue on our own with what we already have?

(She might not even remember what She had in mind at the time, for those translations. One sometimes gets that impression.)

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Asicho
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage That's what I was thinking, too--see if there's things we can do on our own without Her. Have we, for example, compiled *all* the words and grammar rules that *are* stated in the text? And how much can we do without Her help? There were certainly things we were wondering that we didn't ask Her yet, anyway...

"For me the purest and truest art in the world is science fiction."
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hrhspence
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(3/22/06 10:16 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I believe we pretty much have collected all that there is in the texts. I believe the next step is for us to decide for ourselves just what the answer to the 3 questions are.

Nepenti
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(3/22/06 10:33 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Yes, I think that is what we are going to have to do.

I don't even feel that strongly which answers we decide to those questions. Let's just pick something, and get moving!

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hrhspence
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(3/26/06 4:11 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Whoo, hoo! Nand'Sidjei-aiji actually answered the question!

Here is the latest question I asked:

Quote:> Dear Caroline:
>
> This is the first question from that long list. I decided to
> send it to you
> rather than ask you to dig through a very long thread:
>
> What the heck does the word shi mean? One poster on Shejidan says it is a
> word that shows increase in politeness, another says it is used
> to keep the
> number of words in an utterance felicitous, some say it means
> “yes” others
> that it means “I am.” If you could tell us what that word means,
> we’d have a
> bit less stress! ;-)
>
> “Shi, Paidhi, Noka ais-ji?” are you reliable, translator-mediator?
>
> “Shi!” I am
>
> And do we see it again as "shi'ra"? in "Na dei shi'ra ma'anto
> paidhi, nadi?"
> Are you not one of the paidhiin, sir? Am I mistaken?
>
> The biggest hurtle to translating and expanding the Ragi language
> has been
> that pesky word: shi. Does it have more than one meaning?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Spence



And here's her answer:


Quote:It does have more than one meaning. Different roots, same spelling, different meanings. Howzzat? --cj



Now this raises a few other questions. I believe that this is where we just plug away at the language. I believe that more information will not be forth coming as She seems to be extravagantly busy.

So, does anyone have any input on this before we go on? I will post the last question shortly.

Nepenti
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(3/26/06 5:14 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Well, that's something.

At least we can get moving now.

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Zen9
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Quote:It does have more than one meaning. Different roots, same spelling, different meanings. Howzzat? --cj



Please extend our most kind regards for this answer from such a busy lady.

Hmmmmmmm..... More than one meaning....if what we see is human transcribing of what they hear, then can we be sure that we have seen the same word at all?

'Watt' and 'what' can only be differentiated by people speaking then in a perticular way, in common usage its only their postion and context that give away the difference. Like with 'write' and 'rite'. To an outsider meeting the English language and transcribing it, one might very well think that we 'rite' on paper, and ask 'watt'.

'Shi' could very well be like this, and thus to us seeing its transcription by a human not necessarily discern the differences between 'shi' as in 'I am', and 'shi' as in a politeness.

Asicho
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote:It does have more than one meaning. Different roots, same spelling, different meanings. Howzzat? --cj



So, we were all right earlier? With all the different meanings proposed? (Or, we could all be right.)

Quote:Hmmmmmmm..... More than one meaning....if what we see is human transcribing of what they hear, then can we be sure that we have seen the same word at all?



Possible. I was thinking that since she says "same spelling," it could be like "mean" (number average), "mean" (to intend), and "mean" (cruel)--same spelling and same pronunciation, but quite different meanings. Or "he's" meaning "he is" and "he's" meaning "he has".

This would let us go with the current Ragi script we have, in which there really would only be one way to spell "shi" (, for those of you with the Ragi fonts intalled). I'm assuming we want to coordinate the development of the script with the actual language, so that we can use the script to write this language once there's more of it. (Obviously the script should be adapted to the language and not the other way around, but if two options are equally possible, and one is easier to write with the script as we have it, that might be the way to go, all other things being equal.)

"For me the purest and truest art in the world is science fiction."
--CJ Cherryh, Visible Light
Zen9
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Indeed.

'Shi'

May mean 'be' (in all or some of its forms) and also the other meanings.

Its thus the context and position that are the guides to what it means in any sentence.

I agree we should form the script around the language. Can we be sure 'Shi' is always said as the 'sh' sound in 'she' or could we be looking at a two different sounds, one perhaps like the way the Dutch say their 's'?

Nepenti
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(3/27/06 10:24 am)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I assure you, nadiin, that the fonts are still easy to change. It is entirely appropriate to change the script to suit the language.

(And Zen, are you satisfied with the "design credits" I have listed for you on the fonts? I certainly don't want collaborators to feel short-changed, and I am not entirely sure of protocols.)

How to pronounce "SH" gets back to the whole "H-consonant" question --- where we made some assumptions, and formed the script based on those. I'm not sure "SH" is a single letter in Ragi. If it is, I doubt it is pronounced like English "she".
I don't know how the Dutch pronounce "s".

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KabiuOne
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(3/27/06 12:06 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Mani-ma is also used by Cajeri to his parents. So, an honorific to parents/parental authority?

Nepenti
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(3/27/06 1:13 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I didn't see that usage by Cajeiri, but it would explain "Mani-ma". I do remember Ilisidi once correcting Cajeiri for calling her "Mani-ma" in public, correcting it to "grandmother" (or, even better, aiji). Suggesting that "mani" is not a simple translation of grandmother.


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4/21/2020 8:50 pm  #10


Re: Notes on CJ's various languages

Dec 24, 2006#12KabiuOne
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(3/27/06 2:20 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I continue to think about mani-ma. Firstly, the suffix -ma is used almost always as a familiar honorific - sidi-ma; aiji-ma; mani-ma but it flows upwards? It is not gender specific.

I am currently re-reading Pretender; and, when I get to towards the end, I think that is where the mani-ma occurred w/Cajeiri's immediate parents.

I like this type of linguistic discovery quite a lot.

Nepenti
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(3/27/06 2:31 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Yes, I would agree about -ma. Upwards, not only in that the person addressed is higher rank, but higher rank in one's own association. I would almost say, higher in one's direct chain of command, although there may be counterexamples.

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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Napenti-ji

One stand assured and reassured Nadi. It will be appropriate I think to me at least, I would not presume to speak for others.

Certainly the Dutch say their 's' differently, sounding more like a kind of 'sh' sound to my English ears.

There are several ways to say just about every letter in the alphabet. Try saying the 's' sound an dmoving your tongue to different postions in your mouth and you'll see what I mean.

Arabic has a 's' sound that requires one to put your tongue on your gums, the blade of the tongue behind the lower front teeth and is a sound and letter distinct from the other 's' sound where the tip of the tongue is place behind the upper front teeth. In arabic there is a seperate letter for the 'sh' sound and thus when one sees 's' and 'h' together they pronounced seperately.

hrhspence
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(3/27/06 9:15 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage The question is, Zen, is there a separate sh phoneme from the s? Or are they allophones of the same sound?

Does the sh deserve its own letter or is the environment of the h the cause of the sh sound to English speakers' ears?

I say the sh is a separate phoneme, that sounds halfway between the English and the Dutch sounds, at least in the dialect of the capitol. We do need to remember that there are other dialects out there.

KabiuOne
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 27
(4/1/06 12:11 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I found an interesting reference to -ma in Explorer last night. Jasi-ji has addressed Illisidi as Nand'Dowager - and Bren thinks that this is correct; not using -ma because Jase is no longer in her man'chi. So, slowly, one sees the -ma suffix as a personal inflection, as well as part of the political concept of association.

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 (just because one so loves the bath scene in Pretender!)

Kokipy
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(4/3/06 2:49 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Yes, Bren notes that nandi is remote, and ma is personal and so no longer proper for Jase as ship-aiji.

KabiuOne
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 29
(4/7/06 11:14 am)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage I have finally finised a re-read of the series. My brain lapsed - it was not Cajeri who called his mom mani-ma, but Tabini who called Illisidi mani-ma.

And I noted that Algini called Bren aiji-ma - a first.

Nepenti
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(4/7/06 7:23 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Whoa, the idea of Tabini addressing anyone as -ma boggles the mind!

As for Algini, that is being discussed in it's own thread.

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Edited by: Nepenti at: 4/7/06 7:26 pm
KabiuOne
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(4/8/06 12:15 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Thank you, Napenti-ji. One will go there to read the discussion. I was just relating one more instance of the -ma suffix with the Algini reference.

Nepenti
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Looking at the relationship between aishi, association, and aishidi, associate, I am wondering whether -di suffix means 'person'. Along the same lines, we have:
nadi (cf. nai, noble person)
nandi
and possibly Babsidi

There are an equal number of cases where -di doesn't have that sense:
dajdi, active ingredient in the dowager's famous tea
mishidi, awkward, lacking finesse
damighindi, flavor of the orange fruit sweets
kurdi/murdi, gratitude (from kur, debt)

Still, I think there are enough words to make a connection between -di and 'person'.

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hrhspence
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage perhaps not person but actor or agent, much like -er in english: new yorker, worker, sweeper, etc.

Then dajdi could be a chemical that daj's. what ever that turns out to be. And kurdi/murdi is the feeling that one has when one incurs a debt to someone else: graditude. Not all occurances of the morpheme needs to be logical to us, the non-Ragi speakers.

Edited by: hrhspence at: 4/8/06 2:43 pm
Nepenti
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Yes, that works. And not every single word ending in -di has to necessarily come from that same root.

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Zen9
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Hmmm....could by like the '-y' ending in English or yes, -'er', or '-ness', or quite a few endings which can transform the meaning of a word.

Warning though, we have '-eth' in old, middle and antiquated modern english. But it s confusing since there are infact serveral different ending types that all have the 'th' sound, and it depends of the word too.

I mean there is no guarentee '-di' is the same in 'Kurdi' as it is in 'Tirnamardi'.

hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
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(4/9/06 3:09 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Several way to solve for that could be: a, add different meanings to the morphological form; b, ignore the morphology in inconvienient places.

Poofing out a language has a different set of problems than creating a language from scratch at the out set. I prefer the later, it takes less time and is more internally consistant. However if I wish to create an artificial language that looks natural, I will combine 2 or 3 artificial languages then alter the results a few times with historical changes.

If anyone has anymore ideas for the Ragi project, please post them quickly as I am going to poof out a prototype for Ragi this week; I'm on spring break and have the time.


chanur
hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 2182
(4/10/06 5:00 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Nepenti, Rodlox, zen, sabina, freek, asicho, neco, cho,sk8er-ji, Kokipy, vetch & mule

are the major contributers to this thread. I am missing some, so if you feel you have been slighted, remember I missed you accidentally, just put your name at the end of this list and you will be sited as contributers to the poofed out dictionary and gramatical sketch I am begining to write from this thread.

Thanks,

Spence


chanur
Xheralt
Bujavid Security
Posts: 198
(4/11/06 5:59 am)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage Stray thought: one wants to append -sigpaidhi to Hank's name, a construction in the same form as sigaiji] What do our resident language /w/o/n/k/s/ experts think?



"Everything goes somewhere; I go everywhere.

...You can't stop the signal."

Mr. Universe, "Serenity"
Nepenti
Professor of Ragi
Posts: 1047
(4/11/06 6:32 am)
Reply
New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593473.5019-smiley.gif
in

But does that imply nobody listens to her? We wish!

____________________________
We have to grow flowers, because flowers are getting scarce.
Eskaybe
Atevi Citizen
Posts: 4
(4/12/06 12:35 am)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote:I have finally finised a re-read of the series. My brain lapsed - it was not Cajeri who called his mom mani-ma, but Tabini who called Illisidi mani-ma.


Quote: Whoa, the idea of Tabini addressing anyone as -ma boggles the mind!



Don't remember the mani-ma context but wonder if Tabini could be reminding Illsidi that he was in her manchi as a child but he is a child no more and why does she have to continue to make life difficult for him?

Xheralt
Bujavid Security
Posts: 206
(4/12/06 8:18 pm)
Reply New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage No, whoever you quoted was right the first time; Cajieri does routinely call Ilisidi "mani-ma", e.g. pp180, 215, and 279, Destroyer (hardcover). But you are correct that it is a first for Tabini to address her as such, as opposed to the usual transliteration of "Grandmother" -- or stylings on the order of "plague of my days" https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/62160/1536593494.8662-smiley.gif
 .



"Everything goes somewhere; I go everywhere.

...You can't stop the signal."

Mr. Universe, "Serenity"
hrhspence
Chair of Hani Studies
Posts: 2184
(4/13/06 9:47 pm)
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New Post Re: basic Atevi/English webpage

Quote:Stray thought: one wants to append -sigpaidhi to Hank's name, a construction in the same form as sigaiji. What do our resident language /w/o/n/k/s/ experts think?



[I like this so much that I am putting it into the poofed out lexicon.]

Now let me describe what it is that I am doing: I took the analysis of the linguists in this thread and printed it it up. I took Rodlox's web page proofed lexicon and printed it up. Then I determined that the basic syllable types of Ragi are as follows: v, cv, vc, cvc. Then I determined that the vowels are as follows: a, ai, e, ei, i, o, u and that the consonents are as follows: b, ch, d, dh, f, g, gh, h, j, k, l, m, n, p, r, s, sh, t, th, tr, dj, w.

I made a list a, ai, e, ei, i, o, u, ba, bai, be, bei, bi, bo, bu, etc, until all combinations were written.

I then dumped the list into an existing data base that held english, sotonok, zindieq, pavis, and oedhù. In the next four columns I dumped 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc, then 7, then 15, then 21. I sorted the 5 column bringing all the 1's together, the 2's etc, then the same for the 7, 15 and 21 columns. This randomized the ragi column. I copied the ragi, alphabetized the english then dumped the ragi back in. This created a proto-gloss of english to ragi.

I am NOT done yet.

Ferdinand de Saussure, a famous linguist, said "The bond unifying the signifier and the signified is arbitrary." He goes on to ask why does French use the word table and spanish use mesa? Why do we use raspberry and French use framboise? 90% of all words are arbitrary, as Saussure said. There is no rhyme or reason for most of our words. But some words like slither, spatter snap etc have onomatopoetic feeling that matches the meaning. My list is not only 100% arbitrary, but it doesn't yet have all of Nand'Sidjei-Aiji's words.

This phase of the project, making the onomatopoeia and the grammar, is called "hitting the lexicon with a hammer." In this case I will need a sledge hammer! This will change up to 15% of the proto-gloss, but keep the rest as it's random anyway.

Sometimes there is a giggle factor with this. The arbitrary word for Butt cheek ended up, randomly to be wedja and in the plural would be wedji! I am not ready to show what I have yet, but will be soon. I'm out looking for my hammer.



chanur


http://strengthofthehills.tripod.com/hanilanguageandculturepage/   

The date I joined the original board: 12/04/2002
 
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