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4/06/2021 5:01 pm  #21


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Aja Jin wrote:

Very good discussion. How nice would it be to have it in person, perhaps over a brandy or two?

Perhaps 2022 would be a good year for another ShejiCon, with CJ and Jane back to health. https://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons2/drinks.png
 But that should ALSO be another thread.
 

 

4/20/2021 3:45 pm  #22


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Ever since man'chi was descried as a flocking instinct I've envisioned  murmuration:






 

 

5/17/2021 10:25 am  #23


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Roci wrote:

What's always surprised me is that the Atevi in general don't seem interested in Mospherian or even human history. In a race that has astronomers (who were admittedly shunned), I would have thought some would be more curious about what drives humans and made them the way they are.

Atevi are not necessarily the most trusting race after the war. But they relied on translators that Humans provided. I'd have expected at least an equal to the paidhi from the Atevi, one that the aiji himself could rely on without any doubts or reservations. If he weren't used to negotiate directly, he could at least gather relevant human history that could help in others' negotiations.

I understand that Atevi in general are less-adaptive than humans, but Atevi language being so much more complicated than Mospherian, it would seem easier for at least a few Atevi to learn the simpler Mospherian.

This is not true at all. It's stated repeatedly especially in the early books that a lot of atevi, particularly ordinary atevi, are *very* curious about humans, and sections of the public drink up what details they can get their hands on.  It's Mospheira itself that is the principle choke point for cultural interaction, both out of fear of misunderstanding and for security reasons, as well as preventing excessive technological leakage.

We don't see much of this in the later books so it's easy to forget. That's because Bren spends most of his time in the company of the lordly class.  The lords have the man'chi of the atevi public but man'chi is not a proxy for political belief or personal preferences (witness the sheer diversity of Ilisidi's allies).  Not only that, Bren spends all his time in the company of the lords who are most conservative without being human-hostile and supports personally that traditionalist perspective.

The Ragi themselves have been depicted as an inventive, exploratory culture.  It was mentioned that when Jase pretended his father had died, the Ragi public wanted to know how humans grieve.  Bren's catalogue mail sometimes gets stolen and turned into fads (like ski fashion, very close to the beginning of the first book I think).   And I'd guess that other groups like the Dur probably have clandestine relations with smugglers and the like.

 

5/20/2021 9:13 pm  #24


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Eupathic Impulse wrote:

Roci wrote:

What's always surprised me is that the Atevi in general don't seem interested in Mospherian or even human history. In a race that has astronomers (who were admittedly shunned), I would have thought some would be more curious about what drives humans and made them the way they are.

Atevi are not necessarily the most trusting race after the war. But they relied on translators that Humans provided. I'd have expected at least an equal to the paidhi from the Atevi, one that the aiji himself could rely on without any doubts or reservations. If he weren't used to negotiate directly, he could at least gather relevant human history that could help in others' negotiations.

I understand that Atevi in general are less-adaptive than humans, but Atevi language being so much more complicated than Mospherian, it would seem easier for at least a few Atevi to learn the simpler Mospherian.

This is not true at all. It's stated repeatedly especially in the early books that a lot of atevi, particularly ordinary atevi, are *very* curious about humans, and sections of the public drink up what details they can get their hands on.  It's Mospheira itself that is the principle choke point for cultural interaction, both out of fear of misunderstanding and for security reasons, as well as preventing excessive technological leakage.

We don't see much of this in the later books so it's easy to forget. That's because Bren spends most of his time in the company of the lordly class.  The lords have the man'chi of the atevi public but man'chi is not a proxy for political belief or personal preferences (witness the sheer diversity of Ilisidi's allies).  Not only that, Bren spends all his time in the company of the lords who are most conservative without being human-hostile and supports personally that traditionalist perspective.

The Ragi themselves have been depicted as an inventive, exploratory culture.  It was mentioned that when Jase pretended his father had died, the Ragi public wanted to know how humans grieve.  Bren's catalogue mail sometimes gets stolen and turned into fads (like ski fashion, very close to the beginning of the first book I think).   And I'd guess that other groups like the Dur probably have clandestine relations with smugglers and the like.

I think the rampant curiosity is a fairly new thing. Television is a pretty new thing. The Atevi have space adventure shows. And humans are always the bad guys. Of course, all of the humans in the show are Atevi actors. People see Bren on TV actually talking. Human's aren't quite those strange mysterious things living way over there anymore. Bren has put a face on them. 

Atevi are curious about individual humans. What do they eat? What are their customs? They aren't all that interested in clan's of humans. The politics of clans is a lords business. Plus, the science of humans involves a lot of numbers. And as good as Atevi are at numbers there are some things that only the best of them can understand. The typical Atevi just isn't that interested in taking the time to learn. 
 

 

5/21/2021 1:36 am  #25


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Reading the last few posts above, my mind now can't let go of the question '- can atevi be what we would recognise as geeks or nerds?

Just wondering ...


 


It's a strange world.  Let's keep it that way.
 

5/21/2021 5:51 am  #26


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Banicihi's lack of knowledge and interest in 'the heavens' is a good example of this.

 

5/21/2021 9:07 am  #27


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Surtac wrote:

Reading the last few posts above, my mind now can't let go of the question '- can atevi be what we would recognise as geeks or nerds?

Just wondering ...


 

Geigi

 

5/21/2021 6:02 pm  #28


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Yes. Amongst the lordly classes, Geigi is the obvious example, but what about elsewhere in society?

The only others I can think of are the group of isolated astronomers / mathematicians in one of the very early books in the series - I can't recall which one.

 


It's a strange world.  Let's keep it that way.
 

5/21/2021 7:05 pm  #29


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

One would think that all the "tekkikin" on and off world would fit the category of "curious Atevi who can mentally manage to be around humans". So far, an exception to that would be the Communications Guild: they are intent on using their tech in a very Atevi way: in keeping secrets to be used against others.

 

5/21/2021 7:36 pm  #30


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Smartcat wrote:

Banicihi's lack of knowledge and interest in 'the heavens' is a good example of this.

But I'm also reminded of Sherlock Holmes' comment to Doctor Watson when they first met.  Holmes asked what difference it mattered to him if the sun orbited the Earth or if the Earth orbited the sun.  He didn't want to fill his mind with useless information.  I believe Einstein had the same feeling, when some reporter asked him if he knew how many feet were in a mile (probably a follow-on to something Einstein had said), the great man said, "Why should I fill my mind up with useless information when I can go look it up in a reference book?"
Perhaps it's not ignorance as much as single-minded devotion to his duty as an Assassin, and especially as a very high ranking assassin.  Just a thought.......
 


"Those who can give up essential liberties in order to purchase a little extra security deserve neither liberty nor security." - Benjamin Franklin
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus Aurelius
 

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