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4/02/2021 2:56 pm  #11


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

One thing that's brought up repeatedly is that Atevi group behavior is *herd* behavior.
Humans aren't herd animals. Mob behavior, although predictable when a sociologist studies it, doesn't follow herd rules. From an Atevi point of view the fact that you can't really predict who the leader will be in an impulsively formed mob would be the scariest point.

 

4/02/2021 3:16 pm  #12


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Thank you Blond Tekikin nadi. You have it exactly.
Humans are mob animals. Have been for the past million years or so. Not going to change *that* any time soon--and a setting like the Author's is way too soon. Humans--like Atevi--are xenophobes. Nuts, entire centuries went by here where somebody not known to be from your specific village was suspected of anything and everything. We're still doing that even on a global village scale.

 

4/02/2021 4:37 pm  #13


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Why didn't the aiji appoint an ateva as a paidhi to the humans?  My thought is that humans were the "invaders" and this was the atevis' planet.  You came here uninvited, you want to talk with us, then you appoint an ambassador who can talk with us.  Otherwise, we don't need to talk with you.  jmho.


"Those who can give up essential liberties in order to purchase a little extra security deserve neither liberty nor security." - Benjamin Franklin
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus Aurelius
 

4/02/2021 5:06 pm  #14


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

scenario_dave wrote:

[
My own personal canon is that the Atevi universe is similar to the Alliance/Union universe. Humans have spread into space. Planets people can live on are rare but every solar system has lots of resources. So humans settle a system by building a space station, then a second, third, and so on. Once there are enough stations in a single solar system for a big enough economy, they start building at the next suitable star. And so on and so on. Living planets are rare. But there are many solar systems with millions or billions or trillions of humans on many space stations. Most humans live in space stations. Few live on planets.
 

I think this is a topic that deserves its own thread.- let me gather my thoughts and reactions and I'll set it up do it doesn't get lost in here, in this discussion which is fascinating in its own right.
 


It's a strange world.  Let's keep it that way.
 

4/02/2021 5:24 pm  #15


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Very good discussion. How nice would it be to have it in person, perhaps over a brandy or two?

 

4/02/2021 6:24 pm  #16


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Blond Tekikin wrote:

One thing that's brought up repeatedly is that Atevi group behavior is *herd* behavior.
Humans aren't herd animals. Mob behavior, although predictable when a sociologist studies it, doesn't follow herd rules. From an Atevi point of view the fact that you can't really predict who the leader will be in an impulsively formed mob would be the scariest point.

That's an excellent observation. Atevi would never form mobs in the same way humans would. They would always look to their leader. Put a bunch of humans who don't know each other and put them in danger. One or more will self nominate to be leader and the rest will follow. Atevi's would never gather in groups of unknown people and if somehow they did, they'd never follow just any leader. They would talk and debate for hours or days before deciding a leader. 

Human's might consider that a flaw but Atevi would never be in that type situation anyway. You never see just one Atevi. And if you do, run, because something is seriously wrong. 

Atevi are social herd animals (which doesn't really exist on Earth). Humans are tribal animals. 

 

4/02/2021 6:36 pm  #17


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

joekc6nlx wrote:

Why didn't the aiji appoint an ateva as a paidhi to the humans?  My thought is that humans were the "invaders" and this was the atevis' planet.  You came here uninvited, you want to talk with us, then you appoint an ambassador who can talk with us.  Otherwise, we don't need to talk with you.  jmho.

But that's just it. Why would any Atevi aiji take a technologically superior invader's word at face value, especially one that all Atevi at the time agreed had betrayed them? Many Atevi at the start of the series are still doubtful of the paidhi, and that's centuries after the war. I'd expect not much trust and lots of verifying. If there's an invader with untold power living next door to me, I would want to know exactly what's happening there with no doubts about authenticity.

- - - - - - - -

On the thought of Atevi who are considered unstable because of lack of manchi... I do wonder they might be more adaptable to living around humans. Perhaps they'd be able to deal with humans and their lack of manchi. On the other hand, I suppose they might be lawless altogether since Atevi aren't known to have any other relationships besides manchi.

Last edited by Roci (4/02/2021 6:38 pm)

 

4/02/2021 7:12 pm  #18


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

Roci wrote:

joekc6nlx wrote:

Why didn't the aiji appoint an ateva as a paidhi to the humans?  My thought is that humans were the "invaders" and this was the atevis' planet.  You came here uninvited, you want to talk with us, then you appoint an ambassador who can talk with us.  Otherwise, we don't need to talk with you.  jmho.

But that's just it. Why would any Atevi aiji take a technologically superior invader's word at face value, especially one that all Atevi at the time agreed had betrayed them? Many Atevi at the start of the series are still doubtful of the paidhi, and that's centuries after the war. I'd expect not much trust and lots of verifying. If there's an invader with untold power living next door to me, I would want to know exactly what's happening there with no doubts about authenticity.

- - - - - - - -

On the thought of Atevi who are considered unstable because of lack of manchi... I do wonder they might be more adaptable to living around humans. Perhaps they'd be able to deal with humans and their lack of manchi. On the other hand, I suppose they might be lawless altogether since Atevi aren't known to have any other relationships besides manchi.

The Atevi would never send one Paidhi. One Atevi is unstable. They would have to send an entire household. But an Atevi household who lived with humans would change. Their manchi to the mainland might fracture. They'd go native. 

Bren just draws manchi to him. Would a group of Atevi's manchi to the far away mainland keep a strong manchi to their mainland lord or would their manchi tend to drift to a local human that they considered to be a powerful lord? How could you be sure of the manchi of an Atevi who spent that much time living with humans? The Atevi had beaten humans once, they could beat them again if they had to. They outnumbered them 10 to 1 or more. And they had the resources. The Atevi built trains so they knew about iron and such and they knew the island didn't much. 

 

4/02/2021 9:27 pm  #19


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

An Ateva that managed to think like a human would *not* be able to relate back to Atevi society in a sane Atevi fashion. So, an Ateva paidhi would not be serviceable to either Atevi or humans.

 

4/06/2021 4:59 pm  #20


Re: I'm confused on how Atevi society actually works.

joekc6nlx wrote:

Why didn't the aiji appoint an ateva as a paidhi to the humans?  My thought is that humans were the "invaders" and this was the atevis' planet.  You came here uninvited, you want to talk with us, then you appoint an ambassador who can talk with us.  Otherwise, we don't need to talk with you.  jmho.

I think too that Atevi would have a more difficult time adapting to irrational humans. On the other hand, humans adapting to alien cultures is a theme throughout many of CJ's books: Tully in the Chanur series, Sten Duncan in the Faded Sun series becoming Mri, and Sten's human boss adapting to the loathsome Regul.

 

 

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