Yes. Thank you star nandi. I was going to point out all the thing you just said. I agree with you.
 

Yes, I agree.  Over here in the Outer Colonies the whole vaccine #strollout has been overtly a party political exercise from day 1, continuously manipulated daily to favour the incumbent federal government's chances of re-election.

Seeing a sensible and respectful discussion such as this one is absolutely refreshing.  Thank you.
 

joekc6nlx wrote:

starexplorer wrote:

Joe, I agree with you that the FDA ought to be prioritizing studying the data and determining when and whether they can approve the vaccines for general use. And also that this shouldn’t be political. It’s a health issue, and we should all be able to assess the situation from a purely medical point of view.
I am curious about one thing you said, about waiting for the FDA approval. I look at the situation and come to the conclusion that the virus is a greater risk to me than the vaccine. I’m wondering what your thinking is on this, and whether maybe you are concerned that the vaccine may be a greater danger to you than the virus?

In my opinion, and this is my opinion gleaned from reading other sources than Dr. Fauci, the mainstream media, etc., the virus is in the same family as the common cold.  When a disease has a less than 2% mortality rate, yet the government is pushing the vaccine, I wonder why.  The flu has a higher mortality rate than COVID, but I guess it's where you get your data.  Here's another thought:  We now have the Delta variant for which the vaccine doesn't work.  Just how many vaccinations does one have to have before the government decides that it's not necessary? From a legal standpoint:  In this country, under the Fourth Amendment, I have the right to refuse. I also have a right to travel freely, so "vaccine passports" are illegal under the Fourteenth Amendment. I don't have to blindly submit to orders to get vaccinations any longer, since I retired from the military.  I have a choice.  I don't trust the vaccines, I don't trust the manufacturers, and I don't trust certain people who are pushing the vaccines.  Having said that, if someone gets the jab, fine with me.  It's their right to choose.  I get the flu shot every fall, I've had my pneumonia shots, my shingles shots, my tetanus shots, yellow fever, malaria, etc.  I still believe that this particular vaccine is undertested.  Still doing clinical trials with a portion of the population, and the Tuskegee Experiment wasn't that long ago.  Thank you, I'll pass.
 

People tend to laser focus on the mortality rate but that's not the only issue.

1) Long Covid-19 - About 1 in 3 people who get Covid-19, get long covid-19 which is where symptoms last longer than the typical 2 weeks or so. Symptoms include fatigue, shortness of breath, cough, joint pain, chest pain, memory, concentration or muscle pain, headaches, fast heartbeat, lost of taste or smell, depression, anxiety, fever, and dizziness. These symptoms can last for months or even years. Long covid-19 can also cause long term damage to the heart, lungs and brain. 

2) If you live in the U.S. and have to stay in intensive care for an expended amount of time, the medical bills will be in the tens of thousands of dollars unless you have an exceptionally good medical insurance. For every person who dies there are many who are hospitalized. Somewhere between 10% and 15% of people who get sick enough to go into intensive care because of covid-19 die. So for every death, there are 6 and 10 people who were in intensive care and more who were in the hospital. 

3) If you were only risking yourself I wouldn't have an issue. The problem is that the longer Covid-19 sticks around the more people will be affected and the more likely it is that it will mutate into a much more dangerous form. 

4) While the death rate is less then 2% the percentage of people who get sick enough to go to the hospital is much, much higher. Hospitals are filling up. I heard on the news yesterday that a pregnant woman died in childbirth because she had to give birth at home without medical assistance because all of the hospital in her area were full. As more and more hospitals get full this sort of thing will happen more often. And people working long, long hours for months at a time get sloppy and mistakes are more likely to happen. 

5) The government making vaccines mandatory has been legal for over a hundred years. It is long decided case law. The problem with making it mandatory is political not legal. 

6) How many vaccines the government requires depends on the number of deadly diseases that have a vaccine. There's no one set number. If a new disease comes out that kills 80% they aren't going to not give a vaccine because they met some sort of magic quota. 

Worldwide, 2.5 billion people have taken at least 1 shot. The only side effects have been minor and very rare and more people have gotten this side effect from the virus itself than from any of the vaccines. How much testing needs to be done?

IMO, I look at this as very much like drunk driving. There are people who have drunk drove hundreds or thousands of times and never got caught and never got into an accident. The chances of dying while you are driving is very low just like the chances of dying from Covid-19. The big difference to me is that if someone kills someone while they are drunk driving, they are easy to identify them. If someone gives someone a deadly disease they can rarely be identified. 

One question. The Pfizer vaccine is very close to getting full FDA approval. Possibly as soon as Monday. It went through the same procedure as every other drug has to get the approval. Would you consider taking it once it is fully approved? 

Covid-19 is in the same family as the common cold. That is true but meaningless. Humans, Chimps, Gorillas, Orangutan and Gibbons are in the same family but are clearly different. 

starexplorer wrote:

HRHSpence wrote:

This reminds me of a discussion I had with my brother. But, unlike the two of you, he and I got to the point where we couldn't talk to each other.  I asked him if he would let me finish my sentences and then I would turn the time over to him. We didn't agree, but we aren't arguing anymore.

I am really really sorry to hear that Spence-ji. We won’t get any where if we can’t listen to each other, try to understand our differences, and respect where we are each coming from.

I think that it is difficult to have a meaningful conversation on some issues because the two people involved don't have a common set of facts. 

When I hear "I don't trust any government site, or university, or scientific journal, I only trust random people on Facebook," I know it's a waste of time to discuss this particular topic with this person. We just don't share a common frame of reference. They may be intelligent people but they are making decisions based on a different set of facts than I am. 

I am very much a live and let live kind of guy up until the point when someone's decisions might get me or someone I loved killed, directly or indirectly. 
 

I agree Star-ji.  I think we need to remember that civilized discourse is the hallmark of fans of Cherryh's works, and live up to that standard.  We should all avoid flashpoints.  Even if we totally disagree we should allow others to think what they want. Oh, and by the way, my brother and I are on speaking terms again.  We're just not talking about COVID.